Bakari
Guest
00:00
So I've had the talk with my son at a very, a pretty young age. I think probably before I should have had to have that talk, but I had to have that the way the world was going. Just for his safety as his father, I needed to sit down with him and explain some of my, what I've gone through and some of what he may face. And if he does get into that situation, here's how you handle it as a black teenager. Here's how you handle it. Here's what you don't do. Here's what you do. Here's where you put your hands. Here's who you talk to. Here is who you don't talk to. You say yes, sir. You say no, sir, you do if you reach for something, you warn people. Here's how you de-escalate a situation. There's all these things he has to think of as a black teenager and, as you know that I have to think of in these, in my daughter as well, that if you're not a person of color, it just it may seem like, well, why do you have to do all of that? 

Ali
Host
01:00
Hello and welcome to the Ally Show. My name is Ali Eslamifar and I'm your host for the show. We're in our episode number six. In this episode we are chatting with Bakari Holmes. Bakari and I we met a few years ago, back when both of us used to work at Course Hero, an education technology company in the Bay Area. A little bit more about Bakari. He is an award-winning musician, educator and technical leader with a passion for DEI and mental health. You can find his music on Bandcamp at bakarisoul.bandcamp.com and all streaming platforms under BakariSoul. For easier access, we added all of his links to our show notes. 

01:44
In this episode, we are talking about a wide range of stories and important conversations, all the way from his story that caused the PTSD that he's going to be talking about, and then we also talked about his challenges dealing with depression, anxiety and how he's actually dealing with all of those. Today. He's also sharing a lot of very interesting and important tools from his toolkit over the past many years that he has been dealing with depression and anxiety. We also talk about specific important resources from NAMI. We put all those links for you in the show notes. I highly recommend to educate yourself and others about these very important resources, hotlines and warmlines from NAMI and other organizations. Also, in general, if you're suffering from any mental health issues, please make sure to contact your mental health or medical experts. 

02:44
In this episode, as mentioned earlier, we are talking about depression, anxiety and PTSD, and also racial profiling and racist behaviors. If this is a sensitive topic to you, please skip this episode and hopefully we can catch you in the next episode of the Ally Show. The accountability campaign for this episode is about doing a specific kind of breathing for 30 days, which is called box breathing. Bakari is telling us more about it in the end of the show, so please stay tuned and join to that campaign if that's something that you would like to be participating. The link to join to that campaign is also in our show notes. 

03:32
I hope you have been enjoying the Ally Show so far. If you like our show, please subscribe on both Spotify and Apple Podcasts and, as you know, you can give us a review up to a 5 star. That would help the show to be seen by those who are in the need of hearing these conversations. Now, without further ado, let's start our conversation with Bakari Holmes. We are here with Bakari Holmes and I'm so happy that we reconnected after a few years that we made each other back at Course Hero. Well, first of all, thank you for coming on the show. I would love to have everyone actually get to know you a little bit better. Welcome, welcome. 

Bakari
Guest
04:26
Thank you, thank you. Is there fake applause? In case there's not, yes, my name is Bakari Holmes. I am a goofball and thank you for having me on the show. So, first of all, we met at Course Hero. 

04:42
You know I have a background as an educator. I taught STEM for about 12 years in high school and middle school I taught music and then I taught physics and astronomy and engineering. I actually started an engineering program in Palo Alto, very unique engineering program that almost cost me my soul as well. So that's the whole. I guess another story we can delve into. But yeah, during that time I realized I was an engineer. I realized that tinkering with things that was the way to go for me. 

05:26
And design I was really interested in design and I have this art. I've always had this artistic side. So I actually went back to school, a school that kind of encouraged you to develop both of those called University of Silicon Valley. At the time it was called Codswell and I became a software engineer, worked at a gaming company. I worked at multiple different kinds of companies, met lots of different people Ali was one of those and at Course Hero I was trying to combine my love for education and education, training and helping students and learners reach their full potential, as well as building great software, working on software teams, building great products. 

06:13
So that's where we intersected. We would have lots of lunchtime meetings and, I don't know, maybe I would say hi and maybe we would try to start going in a work direction. But it never did, because I always felt like you are also a pretty deep guy and like you're a person that I could have these kinds of conversations with you know, about family, about kids, about all kinds of stuff, and so, yeah, I was just happy to reconnect with you recently and, you know, restart, not restart, but like rekindle, I guess. 

Ali
Host
06:51
The importance of lunch conversations, which, honestly, like right now, being out of work environments for a few months, maybe the one thing and, of course, being remote for three plus years since COVID the biggest thing I miss about work is having those real conversations. As a matter of fact, now I just notice maybe that's why I'm podcasting and talking to people, because I miss those kind of like deeper, genuine, true conversations. Of course, when it's about work, you're talking about work and it's a project that comes in a day and goes by the day after. But what mattered to me at least back then was these real conversations, that I'm missing them. So I'm glad I have it again. It's also like good for me that I'm having it with my former coworkers that I had those conversations with you know it's kind of like a comfort zone. 

07:48
Now I'm realizing it. I just had a moment of realization. What do you have to say about that? 

Bakari
Guest
07:54
I think that's what you said is really important. And a good jumping-off point is someone that you already have a rapport with, whether it's maybe not that deep, and then you have a rapport, but you kind of know that, hey, I can go a little bit deeper. Or maybe I know some things, but I don't know everything. So I think that's important Because in work I kind of alluded to this before I have very, very ambitious and my wife will attest to this, my kids will attest to this and sometimes I get lost in my ambition and I'm driving, driving, driving, driving for this quote, unquote noble goal, but I lose my humanity, not my humanity. I don't become a monster, but I become. Just. I lose sight of my values, like why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm going for the goal, but I'm not necessarily tuned into myself mentally or emotionally or to the people around me that are the most important, which is my wife and my children and, yes, I am married and I have children. I'll probably figure that out from what I said, but I think that's important. 

09:06
Those conversations are part of us being human and us reaching out to humans around us and being human, and it's not just about the bottom line. It's not just about what we're here to do to make money but it's about connecting across cultures. I think I remember discussing and asking you questions about your culture and really being curious because there are lots of gaps and lots of things that I didn't know but that I want to know. And that's a curiosity that I have and I think that's also important, especially today with all that's going on in the world, that we reach across and, you know, to our brother or sister or other person and, you know, just care about them, just have compassion and have be genuinely interested in other people, in their point of view, not just our own point of view. So I think, like those lunchtime conversations are a great way for a springboard for those kinds of conversations. They can go south. I've had some that have gone south. 

Ali
Host
10:25
I think, like sometimes like being in the silo of like solving problems for from a business perspective, we forget about the fact that, like even for our users and our customers, we should also like be genuinely curious. What's their problem? How might we be able to home them? What background causes this need? And I think the best way to practice it is by being genuinely curious and interested into knowing the people you have around you that's for free. 

10:58
That's the one you'll need to hire on the social media that, hey, come join me for this effort or come to participate in this research. No, you have those people around you to be genuinely curious about them. 

Bakari
Guest
11:11
And to give a little plug to my current company, CompeteCV, which very soon something may be happening. I'll just say that much. 

11:26
But I'm now a manager and one of my big focuses is UX, this user experience. So we were talking about the human element of building a product and in UX you can't ignore what your users are experiencing. Sometimes it's frustration, sometimes it's anger. They're mad at your product because they didn't want to do X, y and Z, but you know they have a blocker and sometimes you don't know what that blocker is. You don't know if it's a bug, you don't know if it's a feature, if it's something that you built intentionally a certain way. You don't know. Maybe if your user flow, you, you're you, they are able to actually do it, but the way that your user flow progresses, it's just too many steps and it's just too much fatigue. So I think again, being in tune with yourself, your own emotion and your own spirituality if that's that's what you want to call it, if that's what you, who you are, that's who I am, and then with that, with others, that is just a reminder and also is a good sharpening tool, even business-wise. 

Ali
Host
12:41
This is the purpose behind doing and having these conversations. Like we are not just genuinely curious to know someone, to be friends with them, to work with them, but we are genuinely curious about them, to see what from their stories can actually be helpful for the rest of us. Like it's not. It's like it's like that position. Like sometimes we are curious because we are expecting to have an answer, but sometimes I think in these sort of conversations I started actually developing this for myself, so maybe other folks who are tuning in they feel the same way. 

13:19
I started actually like thinking about how to question myself rather than how to have an answer. Like I think it's a very fine line between like thinking that I'm looking for an answer to something. Let's go and talk to people. These days I'm looking for questions like how to come up with better questions, knowing other backgrounds, knowing other cultures, knowing why people are the way they are. That gives me like a new framework for having questions. I don't know if that makes sense to you or if you have had anything to it. 

Bakari
Guest
13:55
That makes a lot of sense, that curiosity. And being a musician meaning being an artist, is very like you're bearing your soul. But you're not just bearing your soul, hopefully, just to bear it, just for your own therapy. You're also trying to give an experience, that other that can pull others in or pull others out of where they are, and give them this experience that helps them or that gives them a release. That's why I do music that emotional reaction that people have when I, when I write something. I just recently I actually haven't released it, but I just recently submitted a song for Grey's Anatomy. 

14:47
This is kind of a sidebar but it connects. This song is about me battling with depression and it's called depression confession and, as you can see, it's kind of like the spirituality and you know the emotional health. But as you get into the song and as you go through the song, hopefully it takes people on a ride and allows them to see that they're not alone and that they, they too, can have their depression confession moment and see that it's okay to not be okay. The song it begins with a question, it ends with a question. It does not resolve that question, but it just asks a bunch of different questions as you're going through the song, so when it actually relates to what you were saying, it's will I fly? Will I fall? Will I glide? Can I stand tall? Will I fly? Will I fall? Well, can I stand tall? I hear the preacher man say it will get better. That's not what my thoughts tell me. 

15:53
As I write these letters, I go left, try to go right. Sometimes I just can't reach that height. Will I fly? Can I fly? When I see my light, you're the thought I count I can't outrun, clouded by what can't be undone. Where will I run to if my chance comes? Will I know what to do? Will I fly? Will I fall? Will I glide? Will I stand tall? Will I fly? Will I fall? Can I stand tall? Can I fly away to be? What I see when I dream? Is what I have inside even good enough? Can I fly? Will I fly? 

16:55
And then the very end just repeats the chorus, which is will I fly? Will I fall? Will I glide? Can I stand tall? Will I fly? Will I fall? Can I stand tall? And then can I fly? It ends on that question. Wow, so I guess I'm kind of like uh towing the line because I'm not singing the song. In a case, it does get accepted by Grey's Anatomy. Grey's Anatomy. People please pick, pick my song. I think it would be great in a melancholy sequence. But yeah, it's not. It's not released and I'm planning on releasing it in 2024, so um so you cannot sing an event for us a little bit you don't, I'm not going to be able to. 

17:41
I can sing something else. 

Ali
Host
17:42
Okay, I can sing something else, but by the way that was that was well written like. As someone we can relate to parts of it. I can tell you it was so moving. So thank you for sharing that with us, and it would be amazing if you can sing for us right now a little 

Bakari
Guest
18:17
how do I say goodbye to what we had? 
the good times that made us laugh always come back and I thought we'd get to see forever, 
but forever has gone away. 
It's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday... 

Ali
Host
18:58
thank you
I remember seeing your LinkedIn post. Sometimes you were posting on LinkedIn post Course Hero time and I was like this guy I never knew he can sing and the way you posted it and like the encouragement around it was so amazing. Where this is started, man, like what's the story behind you singing? If you can share a brief version of it, sure? 

Bakari
Guest
19:24
yeah sure, voices all cracking, um. So I grew up in a very large family, um, on both sides very musical. My dad plays, plays he's a master drummer and plays all kinds of percussion and trains others to do the same, as well as this kind of the spiritual and emotional connection to their ancestors and to how that instrument has been used over the years in different cultures. So very rich cultural tradition on both sides. On my mom's side, very traditional, kind of fundamentalist Christian acapella singing happy birthday happens and then my aunties stand up. I have a lot of aunties. I can't even remember the number. I think it's, I think it's nine and it was nine and or eight, let me not, let me not try to guess. 

20:28
I've got lots of aunties and uncles, all who either can sing or know how to jump onto a note, because if someone's singing Happy Birthday, everybody's kind of looking around. 

20:41
You know if you're not, uh, if you're not, if you're not jumping on your note, so it's like four-part harmony, uh, that I was hearing, you know, at a very young age and you know through church and you know, seeing with my cousins, um, just kind of developed my ear and a desire to always have this, you know this camaraderie and this fun and this laughter and sometimes laughing to until we cried, but just about music. 

21:10
But we, we bonded over lots of different kinds of music, not just church music but hip hop and r&b. And then I got into jazz and then I actually studied, um, studied music at San Jose State. I was a music minor and, uh, then I got into music professionally and started performing as a solo jazz artist and, you know, recorded some things and in the, in the age of Spotify kind of came along and I was involved with acapella still so, like I was doing first it was like amateur collegiate acapella, like pitch perfect, and then, um, like semi-pro acapella, then pro acapella, um, you know, performing at fairs and you know weddings and different things like that, um, and then doing like kind of the solo, uh, solo act thing for weddings and then performing with my groups and now I guess where I've landed, having moved to Atlanta, is I'm actually building a recording studio here. 

22:18
So I'm in the process of doing that. I'm also writing for SYNC, which is why I submitted for Grey's Anatomy. I'm part of, uh, this group called the, the SYNC Titans you can look that up. Michael Ellsner and Jody Friedman shout out to them um in the group that they run the community that they are building um, and some in just some of the great friends and musicians that I met through there. So I'm doing that. I'm also doing voiceover um. Where I can, I'm doing some background vocals and some worship, uh, some worship music. That's not as much as as before, but it's okay. You know I'm trying to take it slow and adjust to. You know our new reality being here and being in a new house, being home, being homeowners and having um. You know, a wealth that we can pass on through the generations, which is important, particularly in the African-American community. One of the top challenges that I have with my mental health is anxiety and um, it stems from multiple things. I I believe in the whole nature and nurture thing, so there were some. 

23:36
I'll just say I'm working through some trauma and you know healing from some trauma and it had to do with some experiences that I had with um Oakland police department, basically being innocent, being unarmed, being a black teenager and being a target and like something when a figurative target but also a literal target being, you know, held a gunpoint. 

24:02
You know all the things that you see on the news Not all the things, but like a lot of things you see on the news Happening to me as a, as a young boy, and now I'm trying to reconcile that with who I am as a man, raising my, raising my children. Some of it also is genetic, I do believe that you know I did work, did some work at Tumay Shiran meet. I'm no longer there, just to be clear. So anything they're doing now or in the last few years, you know I haven't been. I haven't been involved with but and and as a great person Got nothing but love for her and her in her team, kind of rambling. But I guess what I'm trying to say is anxiety is something that I battle with on a daily basis and Try to find ways to cope with In. 

25:00
You know, these different spheres that I walk in and In some cases, these fears that I'm walking in they help. But in some cases, anxiety is triggered because you know there's a responsibility or there's, you know, a conversation. Conversation can Can trigger something in me and then I'm like, oh wow, I'm feeling that like I'm nine years old again. I'm feeling like I'm ten years old again. I'm like this little person, how do I work through this? So I'm gonna answer my own question that I just asked, if that's okay, yeah, so so some of the things that I do, I am a big believer in, if in you know, using our medicals, the system that we have a mental health. It's not perfect I am well aware that it's not perfect, but I think there are, if you can find them, there are some really caring, skilled people that Can really really help you Therapists these are psychiatrists. In some cases these are like social workers, depending on where it is that you're at in life. These are people that can help Help you connect the pieces with. I've found, with my emotion. Even if I'm a reflective person, I don't see everything I don't, you know, like even being married, my wife notices patterns that I didn't pick up on. But she's noticing these things, looking at me from the outside, over time, and Sometimes I invite her to my therapy session, and that is helpful Because it helps the therapist have a fuller picture of what's going on. Not that I'm trying to leave something out, but it's just like I'm blinded. I have blind spots. We all, I think we all have blind spots, and the relationships on our lives as well, as you know, connect us to our humanity sometimes can also expose those blind spots. So we can better Be, better versions of ourselves and deal with the things that we need to deal with, whatever those are, whether it's anxiety, whether it's depression, whether it's bipolar, you know. 

27:25
But yeah, so therapy, I actually do take medication. I take medication as it's been prescribed to me and I take it religiously, almost like it is my faith, because my Ate, my ability to function the way that I want to, depends on. I'm not one of those people that could just be go. Oh, you know, I just go off my meds, you know, for two months, three months, and just you know, see what happens. No, uh-uh, try that done. That doesn't work, not for me. I'm not. I'm not one of those people, it's just the way that the cards were dealt. I've cried over it. I have, you know, pleaded and begged. It is. It is what it is right now. It may change, but right now this is where it is. So, so, taking my medication, so those are like the bed rocks, the therapy medication. 

28:19
There are also other things like that you can do that are like outpatient. So I went through an IOP program, which is it called intensive outpatient. So there's PHP, there's IOP. I think one is you go every day and you have these classes you have they're therapists there, you have caseworker, you have psychiatrist, you have nurses, so you have the it was right connected to the hospital. So it was actually really, really Integrated and you were there with other people that maybe had similar things or maybe they were different, and you had, like the first floor, that people that were basically flight risks, it couldn't leave. I was on the second floor. Those are people that could come and go and it was very, very transformative for me. I went through the first time Just to get my anxiety and my panic, panic attacks under control. Second time I went through I was more trying to understand Some of the wise, and this is after like 20 years of therapy, something like that. But I'm very committed to my to my mental health, and there's so many tools out there, some of the tools that I learned in that IOP program. 

29:44
Breathing 54321, 54321 is like just quite, really quickly. That's when you you look around the room. If you're in a situation where you're trying to gain control of your senses or gain control of your anxiety, you find five things in the room that you can see, or four things in the room that you can hear, or three things in the room that you can touch and you can. You can even touch them if you want, you know. And then two, one same thing. So it doesn't matter what those five or four or three are, but just making sure you're engaging your senses, having like a cold press or like a Orange that you keep, piece of fruit that you keep in the freezer. You can take that out, put it, put it in your hands and you can breathe while you're doing that. What that does is it slows Everything down. It helps you slow your breathe, because sometimes it's like hard for me to catch my breath, but when I have that in my hand. It aids my body in Slowing down and then allows me to again take control over you know my higher brain function. So those are just some of the things that I do. 

30:57
I also do bots breathing. That's like I'm almost a meditative breathing Breathing in, counting to four, holding counting to four, breathing out, counting to four, holding counting to four, and then you Repeat that you doesn't have to be four. It could be seven and six, or you know, maybe you, when you breathe, maybe you have to have, if you have asthma, breathing in maybe harder, so you might want to do that shorter. But the point is is to have a rhythmic, mindful way breathing, that you're paying attention to your breath, you're paying attention to how long you're breathing, paying attention to are you clenching up when you're breathing, and then, if you see that you are, then you know, releasing that tension. 

31:47
One of the things I also learned is how common Panic disorder and Depression are. Like one and four, one and five I can't remember the exact number, but it's when I learned that I was like oh my gosh, I'm not alone. There's like people All over, all around me, just walking around, that you know we're all struggling with similar things. We're just not saying anything. First of all, we are not even able to recognize it sometimes that, oh, this is a problem. It's not normal. 

Ali
Host
32:17
Second, it's like the stigma around it doesn't allow us to feel comfortable. Stop talking about it. And I think, well said you, you, you mentioned a few things. I want to call out some bullet points and, if you wanted to, I think you know, I think you know, I think you know, I think you know, I think you know, I think you know bullet points and if you wanted to give more detail about some of them, feel free. If not, we can jump to the other ones. I think the first one that comes to mind Is definitely like your story Around what, what happened with you with the Oakland place, if you want to go deeper in there too, is this Anxiety, like? 

33:05
I think it's one of those things, as you mentioned, like a lot of us are dealing with it. What's what's that for you? What are the characteristics of that for you? You also Even before that yeah, you know you mentioned like sometimes actually In your therapy, like your partner is also like helpful to give you some corner cases of your behavior. Earlier, I wanted to ask you like, how is your family helping you with catching those moments which you Called out, this sort of like therapy experience? To me that was interesting. We kind of like went a full circle. I kind of got my answer, but if you can share a little bit about there. And then, lastly, I just want to mention, since you mentioned 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, emily, our guests on episode 2. She actually opens her conversation with a meditation practice of 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. So for those who are listening, that's a good episode to tune into. If you, if you have never practiced that. She's taking us through that experience as well. So I'm gonna pause. I ask many questions. 

Bakari
Guest
34:11
That's awesome. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna check that episode out to you said that's episode 2. 

Ali
Host
34:18
Episode 2, okay, episode 2 with Emily Schikly. 

Bakari
Guest
34:22
Okay, oh, dude, we used to work with her. 

Ali
Host
34:26
Yeah, oh my god, yes, yes. 

Bakari
Guest
34:31
Emily, like Emily we used to work with. Yeah, Emily, okay, exactly. 

Ali
Host
34:34
Oh my god, yeah, again full circle. 

Bakari
Guest
34:38
That's crazy, um, Okay, so I'll start with the I guess one of the last things you said, which is how does my like, my partner and my family, how does that factor into mental health? Well, it, it's very interesting because I don't know if interesting is the right word, but All of us deal with some kind of mental health challenge In my family and I'm not going to reveal any names or anything, Sorry. Again, I'm feeling mighty. Um, but yeah, so my wife it's kind of been late, in the sense of she's now exploring, like if some behaviors or some things are because of something that maybe was not diagnosed or something that was missed. And then my kids from a young age we spotted some things and we were like we're not sure what this is, but like we sent my daughter to this play therapist and they were playing with dolls and it was just like it was very creative. 

35:52
I was this doctor near Stanford in Palo Alto, but just a great doctor, and was able to pinpoint some things in our daughter and my wife's relationship early on that she started working on that and my wife started working on this was able to address. But we have always we used to have a chart and this is some parenting advice. This is a really great exercise. But we had two charts on our wall and one said how are you feeling? And it had like 32 faces in rows and columns and they were just like happy, sad, angry, embarrassed, guilty. It was just a whole bunch. So what we would do is we we'd be near my wife or what we would have the kids. We say okay, I want you to go up to the, to the board, and tell us point to one of those that describes how you're feeling. 

36:54
It's all at first was kind of hard, but after a while they started to get the hang of it. And it was very interesting seeing my, my son. He was like I'm mad. He was usually mad and sad. I think it was like mad and sad. He had two. You know, my daughter would have like half this one and some of this one and some of this one and some of this one and some of this one is my brother's fault. 

37:22
So yeah, it was, but it opened the door to having these conversations and you know, this is kind of a building a safe space and that's important thing for us as parents is building that safe space, the other, the other, the other one that we had was why are you angry? And it had an angry face, but it had all arrows to these other emotions, the secondary emotion. So the idea is that you can feel angry, but sometimes there's something else under it. It's like you feel angry, why did you, did brother hit you? No, you know, did this happen? No, did this happen? 

38:07
You start crying because there's this other layer, to you know, your, your emotion, to your anger. And so I think all of those things emotion, your thoughts, spirituality, your mental health those are all connected. I can't explain it. I'm not a PhD, I'm not God, I can't invent the whole human body or the brain, but I think somehow they're all connected some way. And I think we had a sense of that and we were trying to tap into that in the way that we parented and not neglect emotion and say oh sit down, just eat your peas. 

38:45
We did try that. It didn't work, so we were like this clearly is not working for our family and in terms of my mental health. I have definitely opened myself up just to receive input. Something that I deeply believe in is not just going through life, but like paying attention to the inputs that are being shown to you about yourself, and then you know if there's something that I need to change, then working on that, and so that could be my wife, that could be my, of course, my children, that could also be, you know, relatives, friends, coworkers, being open to giving and receiving that, that input. 

39:31
There's lots of terms for it in different circles, but because that is my belief, when I went into therapy, I naturally I wouldn't say naturally it was easier for me to get there, because, you know, there were times I was not. I don't want to know, it's my therapy, I don't want you there. And then I remember my wife was just like hey, you know, I've got some concerns about bipolar and this is why Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, okay, you know what, I'll just have you come, you can talk to the therapist. And I'm thinking, oh, the therapist is going to just, you know, shut it down, yeah, so she came, she talked, and I talked to the therapist. Listening, therapist goes yeah, I do, I do think there's something to this. I think you could be bipolar. I'm like what In my inside, I'm like what I'm trying to, you know, maintain my cool. So, yeah, they started me on this one medication for bipolar and, man, my depression lifted within like two weeks. It was amazing. 

40:51
So that's, I guess that that vignette or that story illustrates how, when you are tapped in to those different pillars of who we are, when you are open to the inputs that life is trying to show you, whether you know you're spiritual and you believe in God, or you know with its relationships in your life, or you're just observant. 

41:15
You know you're just emotionally observant and if, when it comes to mental health, as we're talking about on this episode, you know you allow other people to encourage you, to help you to reflect, no, I think this is the kind of person you are, because I hang out with you every day and you know, you think you don't, you know, amount to anything, but I don't think that's true. Like just allowing those voices into your life, I think will be better for it and healthier for it. And I think I'm a testament to that, not only just the work that I've done, because I have done a lot of work, but the work that others have done in loving me I wouldn't call it work, but just the care that they've shown in just being involved in my life and sticking with it. 

Ali
Host
42:04
It tells me. If you want it to work, first of all, it's possible. There is a setting that within some setting you can get some good results to. It requires commitment from all people around it. We can't just expect, we can't just tell our friends, hey, ali, like you're not doing well, dude, like you've been so angry recently, we can't just say that without committing to help him solve that problem, like solving mental health problem. 

42:32
Again, I think it's a terminology for this episode that we are keep using. It's a full circle of efforts. Is that like? I think everyone, everyone has to see their part in that challenge. 

Bakari
Guest
42:50
So with the Oakland Police Department. I mean, I won't go into more detail than I already have, but I will just say that there have been events that have happened right in front of me or that I've seen on social media or that I've seen on the news, that are almost identical to what I've gone through. So it's very, very hard for me to know about it or to see it and to not have it affect me and to not have it trigger what they call post traumatic stress disorder. Right, If you most people think about the military, right, if you are in the military and you are around a certain kind of lifestyle and then you come out of that lifestyle, but then there is lingering stress and trauma because of what you experience. It's the same for, sometimes, kids that grew up in the inner city or kids that grew up in a rough neighborhood or kids that just grow up. 

43:56
For me, I grew up in an upper middle class family, but it was very shocking to experience the things that I did when I was just passing out flyers just with my music group, dressed up in whatever our parachute, pants and high top fade. We were trying to pick up girls and that's what we were thinking about. We weren't thinking about anything else. So the excuse the police gave was that we matched the description of someone that did a shooting. And so we were. Of course it was racial profiling. And then all of the things after that transpired very, very quickly within a matter of seconds and it just transformed my life. I mean, I'm still trying to put the pieces back together and it's sad, but it's just the reality of the world that we live in and it affects my children because they know what I went through and they experienced things themselves. 

45:16
So I've had the talk with my son at a very, a pretty young age. I think. Probably before I should have had to have that talk, but I had to have that because I felt that his safety with the world, the way the world was going, just for his safety as his father, I needed to sit down with him and explain some of my, what I've gone through and some of what he may face. And if he does get into that situation, here's how you handle it as a black teenager. Here's how you handle it. 

45:48
Here's what you don't do. Here's what you do. Here's where you put your hands. Here's who you talk to. Here is who you don't talk to. You say yes, sir. You say no, sir, you do. If you reach for something, you warn people. Here's how you deescalate a situation. There's all these things he has to think of as a black teenager and, as you know, that I have to think of in these, in my daughter as well that if you're not a person of color, it just it may seem like, well, why do you have to do all of that? 

46:16
But I mean it's just like it's tiring, like trying to explain that, but it's just, that's just my life and that's just the life that. It's not all the time, you know, I don't walk around like that all the time, but there's just again moments that just rip you out of the comfort that you're in and put you into this situation where now you're, it's survival and you're trying to survive. And so I wanted to impart that to my son in that conversation. I'm going to go anxiety 101 and I'll try to go up advanced, but anxiety 101. 

47:04
So anxiety is a good thing. First of all, I want to start out by saying that anxiety is a good thing because we need it to survive. We need when there's danger. We need when there is there's a threat to our lives. You know, especially you know, as we evolved as humans, there were different threats that when they showed up we needed to, we needed to flee, or we needed to stand and we needed to fight, or we needed to, like, scare the thing away whatever it is to bear or something that's called the fight or flight response and that is actually built into our, to our instincts. 

47:42
We, these are instincts. When we get into situations, we get into fight or flight. Now, there are certain situations that in your life, when you're going to go into fight or flight and you should learning we do we get into different situations. What happens when you have a disorder is your fight-or-flight response is triggered way too often. And I say too often. Well, what is too often? Well, I don't know, it's different for everybody. Some people they want to, they want it to be triggered in certain situations and some people, some people, they don't want it to be triggered in situations, for instance, if I'm giving an example, for I don't want to be triggered every time I see a cop and I drive by and I'm not, you know, I think. I think by and large, most cops are good people. They get into it for the right reasons. I have two family members who are in law enforcement, so I'm not against like law enforcement, so I don't want to be triggered every time I see a cop. But then again, there are certain times when that flight-or-flight response is triggered, not because of something necessarily that they're doing, but because of my past, something that another cop did to me in another city or another place, or maybe I'm in the same city that I was where, where it happened that actually happened. We went to a concert. It was in the same block, that when were it happened. We were walking by and I was just like, oh my gosh, it was just started feeling, you know, my muscles tensing up, breathing much, much faster. It's like almost like hey, you know, a lion just came up, it's just growled at me. What would I do? You know those all the things that your body would do if a lion just started coming up and growling at you. 

49:25
And that's how I like to describe a panic attack is that, you know, all of those things start to happen and people may look at you and go well, what's going on? There's, there's nothing happening. Well, they can't, they're not experiencing and or sensing what you're sensing and and um, yeah, I suffer from panic attacks. It's actually a pretty common thing and you know, there's multiple things. Some of those things that I mentioned before Can help cope with those, but I suffer generally from anxiety, from high anxiety. So there's kind of just high anxiety when you're just kind of constantly on alert or your, you know, your body tends to tense up really easily and so I also suffer from that. So there's dealing with the general high anxiety and there's like life skills that can help you do that, you know, not taking on too much or too little. There's just lots of things that that could help you manage the life anxiety, and there's like lots of literature and lots of books. So I won't try to solve that because I'm not an expert, but like there are lots of mental health experts that can help you with the life anxiety as well as the clinical anxiety. 

50:44
Now the clinical anxiety is when it gets to a point where it interrupts your ability to live. It'll rock your ability to function, interrupt your ability to maybe keep a job for a certain amount of time. There are certain situations that you run into that just make it hard for you to continue in doing what you want to do and enjoying, and so that that that's the clinical part where you know I Think it's best to have someone that's an expert that's helping you, whether it's a therapist, whether it's, you know, ea, what are the EAP? These programs that you're if you're, if you're working and you're at a corporation. Sometimes they have these where they let you see a therapist for a certain amount of sessions for free. There is a National Association of Mental Health Mental Illness I believe and there are some really, really good resources that NAMI has. You can go to NAMI, you can Google panic attacks, you can Google bipolar, you can Google pretty much anything within NAMI, and you can also connect with Support groups that are available through NAMI peer Peer counselors. These are just people just like you. They're not mental health experts. Maybe you don't want to go to that level, but there's like any level of involvement that you want to have. 

52:13
It exists. If you just want to have a friend to talk to, it exists. If you want to just have a peer counselor, it exists. If you want to just have a therapist, it exists. If you want to have a therapist and a psychiatrist, it exists. If you want to do like certain therapies that have been known to work on For people with trauma, like EMDR. I've done similar therapy, very, very effective for me. You replay, you know, you actually access your long-term memory as well as your short term memory and you store and Re. You almost like rejigger of the way the term memories were organized and very very powerful. 

52:52
I remember, at my last session before I left California, I was just Crying, but it was not like a sad cry, it was like a release of this burden that I have had for many, so many years. And Again it was just like this the small me, the nine-year-old me and the middle-aged me and the now me, you know we're back together again. They weren't separated. 

Ali
Host
53:26
Thank you for sharing now me as a resource, like for those who are listening. Please, if you feel you're suffering, look it up online. As Bakari mentioned, there are resources and, of course, ask for help, like telephoto, telefriend. Tell it Someone that you know teleco worker, that you trust that. Hey, I think I need help. Do you know anything like ask people and hopefully you get the help you need Immediately. Can I, can I add one? 

Bakari
Guest
53:53
more thing, please, please, please, please. As we're on this subject, there are hotlines that you can call into. Nami actually has a warm line, warm line, but it's basically like, if you maybe are struggling with the idea of suicide, but you're not, like you're not at the point where you're ready to take your life, but you're, you're concerned, that's like you can talk to someone when you're in that situation. So, again, the any, what, any level of engagement that you want to have, it exists in this world, it has been Place here, or someone has created it, or God has put it on someone's heart to create, however you want to say it, but it exists, it's here and there's always help and there's always hope. So I wanted to just add that, of course, there are suicide lines. I'm sure that the only will be all over that in sharing those resources, but I want to make sure that people know that you should definitely, if you're feeling In a bad, bad, bad spot, reach out. Please just ask for help. 

Ali
Host
55:18
You also mentioned your story with the police or the law enforcement experience you had. It's one of those things that for me personally, it's always been like such a deep Pain that I've seen and like hearing it over and over from my friends and my dear friends like yourself, like it's just a wound that never, probably, is going to close and it's very painful to see that happening generationally and hopefully, as we develop Mechanisms, both socially and also like within us as human beings, hopefully things are going to go to a place where, in few years from now, you and I, we can sit again and this issue is resolved. 

Bakari
Guest
56:06
You know, I do want to say that I am hopeful that it will change and that it is changing. But I think and I'm going to wax here, philosophical Malcolm X the reason it hasn't changed so fast is because when you have a thing like racism that is so pervasive, that pervades every part of our lives because racism is an attitude Well, it starts with an attitude and it starts with a hatred for or a disdain for another person. And that attitude, even if your kid or your cousin doesn't share that attitude, you having that attitude affects how they look at that person, especially if they don't know anyone that looks like that, or they've never seen anyone that's a lawyer or a doctor or this or that, or you know. So you, you know, you start to develop biases in these things. Are there so hard to root out? And I think just progress has been slow and yes, there's been political. Our political system hasn't been friendly, hasn't been an ally to change. 

Ali
Host
57:24
For lack of a better word. 

Bakari
Guest
57:26
I know this is the. The name of the podcast Hasn't been an ally to change it was the, it was the right word. The situation, but I do believe that you know it's been slow. But I really like when I look at my kids, it gives me so much hope that this is going to be the generation that really, if not solves it but like, makes the turns of the corner and really helps With that process of at least recognizing. Because if you first you have to recognize the rule Two sides or three sides or four sides, have many sides, there are got to recognize the wound or the wounds. And then, once you recognize there's a wound, then you have to have a decision to make Okay, am I going to let that one faster or am I going to do something to heal it? 

58:17
So, but I think, I think just watching my my children Gives me a lot of hope that they're going to stand on the shoulders of the Giants that I like, that I mentioned, like Martin Luther King, malcolm X, but also just every person that's like ever been kind to someone else or that's marched or that's Called someone when they thought they were concerned because of racial injustice. Those things all make a difference. 

Ali
Host
58:44
They may seem small, but they add up and I think, in the sum total of the universe, the arc bends towards justice, since my Barack Obama is Even with all the Wounded you experienced yourself, like the fact that you can Analyze the situation and see different aspects of it is just fascinating for me to see and hear. So hats off to you and, again, the community behind you it's. It's also like interesting you mentioned and I'm not I'm nowhere to be called like a racism social expert I can't, that's not what I studied for. But I see the paradigm that you, as you were talking, the paradigm of in this show we're talking about mental health, as something that First we should recognize it. We should recognize a wound in someone who is dealing with a mental health issue and, in a way, like the way that you're speaking about, racism behavior is like also like it's a rooted behavior, like we should first help folks who are dealing with that issue really recognizing the fact and the root causes of Acting, the way they are acting, and then help them heal through that process. So that's why, again, that communal commitment is required for everyone to see that problem and to accept the fact that it's a rooted problem and hopefully, through this communal support and commitment, we help each other to your point. 

01:00:30
Two side, three sides, four sides, however many sides there is. Let's all work together to have that commitment and push each other to solve it. Thank you so much for not only sharing your story but also like providing a ton of great resources for folks to have those in notes in case if they ever needed or if somebody needs it. We always ask our guests to share an activity that is helpful for mental health. That they do usually and they want to do that with our audiences. So if there's an activity that you would recommend to the audience to do it for a month, potentially with you, what would that be? And if you want to add any details to it, feel free to take this time. 

Bakari
Guest
01:01:28
Yeah, sure. So I'm gonna do one of my go to coping strategies, which is his box breathing, and I think I think I explained it earlier, but I'll go over again. So for box breathing, what you want to do is you want to make sure that you are in a space where your body can relax, and we're just going to do around here. So we're going to breathe in, and as we breathe in we're going to count up to five, and when you get to five, you know you should stop, stop breathing in and hold your breath. Okay, so let's go one, two, three, four, five, and then you hold, you count to five again one, two, three, four, five. And then you breathe out one, two, three, four, five and you hold one, two, three, four, five and breathe in one, two, three, four, five and hold and we're done. Okay. So I mean that's essentially, you can keep going around and around and around. 

01:02:59
But I sometimes I'll do that. I'll be in a meeting and I'll be breathing or I'll be doing what's called progressive muscle relaxation. So you're doing that, but you're clenching certain muscle groups and then letting them go, and then clenching certain muscle groups and then letting them go. I'll be doing that in a meeting and they won't even know that I'm doing it. But it's like I'm coping with my stress as I go, coping with my anxiety as I go through the day. 

Ali
Host
01:03:27
I recently started like doing more of the physiological side and cyclic side and it's been amazing this, this approach that you suggested for us to do with you for 30 days. It reminded me of that and the after effect of it, as, as we were practicing it here, the after effect of it was very similar. So thank you for bringing that. We'll be posting that as a campaign so everyone can join you if they want to participate in this very simple box breathing but very impactful experiment to do for a few days and see what it does to your health and your stress level and everything we are over time. But any, any closing thoughts, anything else that you want to say before we end this call and hopefully we can have you later for more conversations, yeah, it'll be great. 

Bakari
Guest
01:04:19
Yeah, it'll be great. I'm just again thankful for you having me here and being able to talk about these really important topics, and you know the time of recording this holiday we call Thanksgiving. I'm not know, there's some problematic things with Thanksgiving, but what I want to say is this is a good time and there's a lot of research behind this, but this is a good time to find something or some things to think about that you're thankful, and the more you do that, it actually improves your mental health. To focus on what you're thankful for versus you know what we're grieved by, and that's real. We have to deal with that. But if we don't do the thankful thing as well, it's we're out of balance. So I would just I will, I'll just leave you with that, and I know I'm dropping Jim's here, but there's a little. 

Ali
Host
01:05:18
It's that time of the year end of the year almost like we only have another month and it's a. It's a good time to reflect one of the one of the habits that I recently started a newsletter that I'm sending to people who like to receive them and one of the habit is really celebrating good moments and simple milestones and be being thankful for what we have achieved, even in simple activities. So today I'm thankful for the fact that I was able to have you on the show seriously, and I'm really thankful for what you shared with us and hopefully this is gonna help not only myself, which I know it already helps me having this conversation but also, like, hopefully, help all other listeners and they benefit from it, and I'm thankful for everyone else who is supporting this show. Thank you so much for coming, bakari, and hopefully you can have another one of these calls with you later. Thank you too. 

Bakari
Guest
01:06:19
See you later. 

Ali
Host
01:06:27
That was our conversation with Bakari. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as well. Again, as a reminder, to help this show, the best way is to follow us on all podcast platforms and you too, you can also review us up to a five-star review in Apple Podcasts and Spotify. That would help the show to be seen by those who are in the need of it. Also, to join the accountability campaign for this episode, feel free to check the show notes and use the link to sign up to join Bakari for box breathing. Thanks again and see you on the next episode of the Ally Show.