Nasibeh
Guest
00:04
And overall, you know, the mental health industry overall is in crisis. Like you know, people are because of a lot of reasons. Probably one of the main factors maybe is social media and stuff that people are getting lonelier and lonelier, and when you immigrate, and you come to a new country, you lose all of your belongings, your connections, your friends, the city that you were known. You know everything, like I remember one time a person told me you know, I just want that moment that I came out of my house and say Salah to someone, not hello or hi. You know. 

Ali
Host
00:50
Hello and welcome to The Ally Show. My name is Ali Eslamifar and I'm your host for the show. We are here with our episode number seven, where we were chatting with Nasibeh Amiri. I got to know Nasibeh when I was looking to find a therapist from my cultural background, and a friend of mine introduced us and I not only was able to find a great therapist from HairsterviceMedInfinitecom, but also I was able to find a great friend, Nasibeh. In the past few months she and I have been talking and discussing a lot of interesting mental health topics and I thought it would be great to bring her on the show and we really appreciate that she accepted the invite and joined us in this episode. 

01:41
A little bit more about Nasibeh. She's the CEO and the founder of MedInfinit.com. She has a PhD in electrical and computer engineering. She's a mental health advocate in the diaspora community especially and, given her experience as a member of this community, she knows at first hand that how hard it's been for immigrants and the diaspora community to find a therapist that understands their culture. In fact, that's why she founded MedInfinitecom, which is an online marketplace to find therapists that are matching your cultural background. This is not a paid advertisement, but I personally use this platform and that's how I got to know a great therapist who actually understands my background. If you are from the diaspora community, especially my fellow Iranian friends, you can use the code ALLY15 to get your first four sessions of therapy with 15% discount and use all the other benefits on this great product. We'll put the code and the link to the website in the show notes. 

02:52
In my conversation with Nasibeh, we are talking about mental health issues caused by cultural reasons or events such as the war between Iran and Iraq, that both of us, as a kid, experience back in Iran. If this is a sensitive topic to you, please skip this episode and we hope to see you in the next episodes of the Ally Show. Also, if you are suffering from any mental health issues, we highly recommend you to contact your mental health or medical experts to get the supports you need. The best way to support this show is by following us on wherever you're, listening to your podcast and subscribing to our channels. You may also review us up to a 5 star review and share us with your friends that you know they need such content. Similar to all the other guests that we have on the show, Nasibeh also has an accountability campaign. She is recommending journaling for 30 days. If you'd like to join her campaign for 30 days, the link is in the show notes and she will be sharing a little bit more about this practice in the end of this episode. 

04:05
Now, without further ado, let's start our conversation with Nasibeh Amiri. Thank you for having me, nesbé. We are here with Nesbé Amiri. 

04:22
The story that we actually got to meet each other first time is really interesting and I think it's really related to this discussion and why I'm excited to talk with you today. We got connected through a friend of ours, Aideen, very old friend of mine. I already had a couple of podcasts with him, recorded on my Farsi podcast, aideen hi, if you're hearing us. He connected us originally so that I can get service from your platform, medinfinit. I was so frustrated finding a therapist that would understand me and he's like do you want me to introduce you to Nasibeh? And he did it. We got on the call and then we were supposed to meet for 30 minutes, but we ended up talking for like two and a half hours, starting the conversation with the fact that we are half Kermanshahi, both half Kurdish. I'm going to stop talking, but I'm so excited to have you. Again, thank you for hosting me today. I'm so excited to have this conversation in person. 

Nasibeh
Guest
05:23
Hi Ali, thank you so much for the great intro. I'm very excited to be here and hosting you and it's my honor. So if I want to introduce myself, I'm Nasibeh Amiri. I am half Kurdish, as you mentioned, so I was born in Kermanshahi and I've actually older than you, so I've actually went through Var as well, like Iran and Iraq for us. So I was there and that's also like you know. I remember some scenes, like you know, like seeing, like you know, bombs in the sky, you know, coming down and everything, and the street that we used to live in Kermanshahi, Farhangian, on a lot of houses like were bombed. 

06:10
Wow so like, yeah, like like two neighbors, you know, on the right, three on the left. You know a lot of them, and usually I don't know why we did that, but after that we were like go and watch, like you know what happened then. So I remember those scenes though. But anyway, that was like one of the reasons that we moved out of Kermanshah and we went to Mashhad. But what we did that later, you know, during the war, we were going out, like sometimes living in Qaimshah, which my mom's family were there, and later sometimes we went to Mashhad. I also have some relatives in Mashhad, anyways, so we ended up living in Mashhad, like when I was like in, maybe 13 years old, I think. Yeah, so that's a story I told you because I wanted to say that I it was not that hard for me to to immigrate, you know, out of Iran and come to Canada, because I didn't have that feeling of belonging to, you know, anywhere I used to live, you know, very early age, like in Kermanshah, in Hamadan, because we like it was like bombing, so we went to other cities, you know you have to, you know, get away from the city and to Qaimshahr, to Mashhad, everywhere, so in in Tehran to Karaj, so everywhere, everywhere that we had family. So we were go there and stay with them for a couple of weeks or months and then come back to Kermanshah. So yeah, that was my story till I immigrated in 2008. 

07:45
I came to Canada to study my PhD. My background is in Electrical and Computer Engineering and so, yeah, so I did like after that I went to work and, you know, did a lot of work and stuff. Then, you know, so I I bought my PhD, I had a great relationship, I went to work, we bought a house, we had like a car, we had everything. And I brought my family to Canada, so I had a family there too. I pretty much had everything at some time, like, you know, like the stuff that people are looking for, like you know money, friends, like my family was there, I was like not missing them that much and everything. 

08:24
So, but deep down, I was, like you know, thinking that something is missing. 

08:29
If this is life, I, you know, I'm looking for something more, like I don't want my life to be like just continue doing this work, you know, like whatever it is, if it's managing like the people, or building, like you know, software and whatever, or even doing like some energy projects, like you know, like multi-billion dollar project, but that was not satisfying for me. So then I, you know, deep inside I was looking for myself, like to add happiness to my life and how can I do that? And I made that a mission for my life to to make myself happier and to make other people happier. So that's how MedInfinite came up. I have more story into that so we can talk about it, but MedInfinite is like an online mental health platform focusing for diaspora communities, and we are connecting people to you know, therapists and psychologists who have the same background, cultural background and understand you, how you have been brought up and know your language, your mother tongue language, and this is, to me, is the difference between being heard and being understood. 

Ali
Host
09:46
Being heard versus being understood. Do you want to elaborate on that, Because I think that there is a lot of act under that's right. 

Nasibeh
Guest
09:53
Yeah, exactly, you know, like because sometimes you think that the issue is like a language. That's like I want to say it's not the language, because a lot of us who have immigrated, you know a long time ago, or a lot of people right now, even in Iran and other cities, they know, like English language or or the language, that of the country they learn it, or even you know there are a lot of tools, there are translators, there are a lot of AI tools. Now, you know you can communicate definitely with anybody you want, but that's just the communication. They hear you, they understand the words, but to have a deep feeling of what you've been through and what each word means, that doesn't come only with. You know the translation and hearing you. So that's the issue. 

10:37
I think, like the immigrants and the Esperanto community feeling in the new country that they choose to live. So they are, they have a huge burden of what happened to them. You know Usually, you know you had a lot of trouble with everything, a lot of challenges, and you've decided to go to. You know, choose another country as your, as your new home, but I think that should not limit you to where you can get. I love to empower people and that's like one. One approach to that is to to help them to be in a better mental state so they can achieve whatever they are looking for in life. You know, whatever they, they left a lot of things behind and came to a new, new place. But when you get through the challenges in life, like some unique challenges specific to immigrants and some overall challenges as a human, yeah, and you're seeking help here. 

11:35
For example, in North America, like, 70% of mental health service providers are white. They have the knowledge they may be able to help you. You know, to some extent, but deep inside, you don't get that deep connection with them. You know to, to that understanding. So like, for example, when we start talking, when I said I'm from Kermanshah, it's a lot of information, yeah, so we just connected at that time. Like we had a great conversation but we just connected. You know, if I say, for example, I went to this university, if it's the same as you, you know I've been living in this city, it's a lot of information coming with that. But with the therapist who doesn't know your background or who didn't live that life that you experienced, they may have the knowledge, just like some science, you know some steps, some helping, but to get through the, through the effective therapy and and the treatment that you need at the end, that stops at some point, so you cannot get that help from you know anybody. It's better to have like to connect with a person with the same background. 

Ali
Host
12:44
I think this story you opened up with I was shocked. I didn't know, actually, you, you were in Kermanshah during the bombardment. But I hope this helps the listeners to also understand those who don't know stories about the eight years of war in Iran, which impacted a lot of our lives. Like I was born during the during the bombardment of Tehran. Like I was, I was impacted in a different way and you. But again, this is the cultural chaos. It's not even trauma, it's the. We are born and raised in chaos. Some of us who are, who lived that era, and those who are born and raised in this era, they are going through another kind of chaos that the Northern American practitioners, the European practitioners, they're not going to even understand it. It's nothing to blame, but I think this, these kinds of stories, become more and more important for practitioners to know so that somehow they either should empathize, to start like understanding how to empathize with those situations, or start like understanding that I cannot handle this patient. I need to refer them to someone else Like I. 

13:55
This story, and that's how I got to know you, the story that I was going through, was like I was thinking that I'm so aware of my mental health issues. Right, I've been going to like therapists I use so many different services online in person. Most times my therapists were white Americans and as soon as I was talking about like the fact that, like I was born during the war, my family was like this, my dad was like this, all I was seeing, like I was just feeling that there is no empathy coming out of it. Like I started like questioning therapy in general, whereas, like when I started like talking to a therapist that you introduced to me and I ended up like taking times with her through your platform First session, I already saw impact and I think, like that opening conversation you had, there's just so much to unpack there because that one big incident back in early 80s, mid 80s in Iran, the eight years of war, created a generational problem for a lot of us that if we are coming here to this country, it has to be understood. 

15:04
I think you can see that probably in the generation of folks coming from India, folks coming from China, folks coming from Tibet, like anywhere in the Eastern culture, I think they're all coming with different kinds of traumas. That if they're coming to this, to a Northern American country with 70% white American practitioners, it's not going to work. What is the path forward? 

Nasibeh
Guest
15:30
First of all, I'm so happy to hear that you're getting the benefit you were looking for from the Medinfinite platform. That was my purpose, you know, of like going through your happy customer. 

15:42
Yeah, all of these hassle of building that and that's a reward for me. So now I'm very happy to hear that. So, yeah, that's exactly what it is. You know, as of what we were discussing before, by 2030, more than 50% of people living in US will be from minorities coming from other countries and overall, you know, the mental health industry overall is in crisis. 

16:05
Like you know, people are because of a lot of reasons. Probably one of the main factors maybe is the social media and stuff that people are getting lower and lower and lower, and when you immigrate and you come to a new country, you lose all of your belongings, your connections, your friends, the city that you were known. You know everything, like I've. I remember one time a person told me you know, I just want that moment that I came out of my house and say Salah to someone, not hello or hi. You know, these are the new thing. These are small things. When you lose everything, you lose all of your connections, and so this will happen for more than 50% of a population of a, you know country with the first like rank of economy, you know, in the in the board economy. So that definitely has a huge impact in coming years on overall people life happiness. People are immigrating to get the dream you know that they have like, especially in US. You know they promise you to come here. This is a dream land, you know, to get to. Whatever you do, you didn't have or you know anything that you want, but these are all the barriers for you, I think. 

17:36
I think the mental issues will be the huge barrier for people to get to where they want. And then you know, when you don't have a population that are, you know, productive and functional, because that mental health, you know direct effect is that you don't have your function, your everyday function, you cannot function at work. You have a lot of issues. It's a burden on the health system and everything. So, both economically and on the level of, you know, people's life, this has a huge impact. So, but honestly, the solution that I thought for now is like connecting people to, you know, to therapist and professionals from anywhere in the world, from other locations, because we don't have enough resources here. For example, in some cities maybe you can find, you know, a therapist with the same background as yourself, but not in all cities, everywhere, like in Canada, us or other countries. So what is? And also we are like in the shortage of resources, like in general, like overall. 

Ali
Host
18:37
What's the ratio of the patients to provide there? 

Nasibeh
Guest
18:41
I think it's different in each, like states, and I don't have the exact numbers, but overall, what I'm getting, what I'm thinking that we should do, is like, with coming all of these AI, you know, and you know all of these development and stuff. The thing that I'm going towards in the future is like developing like a language model which is trained, based on the same cultural data. Because you know, overall, like in therapy, everything, even the current approaches that people are using, were based on Western data and Western culture. You know, in Western culture it is praised. That, like individualism is, like you know, appreciated, which is not the Eastern culture. 

19:27
And you know, when you get to therapy, it's like what you know, they try to convince you that it's better. You know you better off if you only think about yourself and you know, help yourself. It may help you to some extent, but it's not the solution for everybody. And the issue is that even you know all of this development. You know Tachy, PT or whatever like that comes you know every day is even those, everything, all the data is just the Western data. There are new researchers coming out that shows that you know how biased these language models are, or even the approaches when talking, even the you know. So I think for future, we have to take advantage of technology, but we have to ensure that we bring, like you know, this cultural aspect to the learning and, you know, developing this. This is for future. For now, I think the platform, something like MadeInfinite, can be helpful for people because we specifically looking for, for example, you know, connecting you with the same person you know at the doorstep. 

Ali
Host
20:34
From your culture or similar cultures. You mentioned, like it's impacting the economy In 2030, it's going to be 50% minority. That means 50% of the workforce is also going to be that. I think there is one thing to be said, and I think we talked about it earlier that even in different organizations, mental health issues are treated differently, like I've seen. I've seen cultural responses in one organization being taken as something to be worked on, something to be coached, versus in some organization being the purpose to get fired, like. 

21:19
I think that's that's one of those stories that has to be told and I'm taking that responsibility right here. I've seen it in orgs where folks, because of the way they responded to a specific event and because of, like, taking things sometimes too personal, because things were personal for us from the traumatic background that we are coming from, from the very strict religious background that we are coming from, things will be taken seriously and we fought so much to not be that Versus in a culture. Now I have to adopt so many things. Some companies are taking a coaching approach. Some companies are taking, unfortunately, negative approach. I think that's also something that requires some awareness, some level of awareness. How do you think about it? I know we talked a little bit, but I'm curious like, from your perspective, even your personal experience, how do you think about this subject? 

Nasibeh
Guest
22:10
I totally agree, like with your point. This is definitely one of the main like very important for companies if they want like to, you know, to have like more productive employees. So this is definitely what they need to look into how they can treat different cultures. You know, multiculturalism overall it is appreciated here, but how to really manage that. 

Ali
Host
22:32
Yeah, it's not just a good brand to say I'm hiring from all cultures. How are you going to handle it? I think that's the question. 

Nasibeh
Guest
22:40
Exactly so. This is definitely very important aspect. And if I wanted to talk about my own experience, as you mentioned, so definitely, this is it like I, as I said, so I grew up. You know, I think a lot of Iranian grew up like with parents who maybe didn't give them unconditional love, and then they become like a perfectionist and you know, I'm not that much lovable unless I do this, you know, I'm not likeable and stuff like that, and so the same for me. So I didn't get that unconditional love. 

23:12
So the effect of it was that even at work, if somebody is telling me or this is not right or whatever, you know, I was like getting that personal, like oh, what are you talking about? It seems like my idea is my identity, it is connected to my identity. If somebody is even giving me a comment or feedback or anything, it's like they are attacking you and you have to respond. Yeah, this is a normal reaction. You have to respond if you feel attacked. So, but then, step by step, I learned that this is not personal. You have to ask a follow-up question. Maybe you misunderstood that. Maybe this is not what you're hearing, because everything is translating something else in my mind, because, oh, it's attacking me. I'm, you know, in this situation and then it's a natural like response. 

23:58
But I learned that not through the company and culture, but I learned that through my relationship. I really like get that unconditional love in my relationship which, like you know, even with my husband, even when we get to the fight or anything like disagreement any disagreement, not fight but he was just keeps telling me you know, I have unconditional love for you. This is just. We are discussing this issue. It's not something associated with you. If I tell this to you, it doesn't mean that I don't I love you less. I have unconditional love for you. Keep it in your mind and then we discuss this, you know. 

24:36
So I learned that through you know, going through this relationship and you know, having all of our discussions, this agreement, I started to learn that, okay, you know, if somebody says something, it's not they are not attacking me, but it is very important, as you mentioned, that you have, like, maybe a mechanism or process or something in companies as well. So you learn that there too. Otherwise, you may be seen as somebody that cannot cope with others, cannot work in a team, or you know a lot of other issues. Yeah, I'd work. 

Ali
Host
25:08
Yeah, this, I hope, is not out of the subject and if it is, I think it's my responsibility again to call it out Like it's really important for folks to know that the culture and the generation that went on there are such traumatic, and we are seeing that today is still happening, not just in Iran. We see it in a lot of Middle Eastern countries, unfortunately, that there is a war that's happening right now in the Middle East. Just think about the moment that I think the society is responsible about this generational trauma that is happening right now that is starting restarting right now. Again war after another war, and it's I don't want to just walk away from like that war trauma, because I think it's one very important thing, and even the fact that we the way that we were working out and our relationship with our families it's again because of that war. A lot of our families started being so conservative after the war. They started accepting that there is a global enemy consistently trying to attack this country. There is a global enemy consistently wanting the bad for us, and that conservatism came into our houses and through that lens. That's why the way we had to consistently fight with so many things, I think just imagine, and we know it, you and I and all of my Iranian listeners who've been from that generation. They know it as their day to day. 

26:40
But it's really important to know because something like that right now, right now, is being created for kids in Gaza, for kids in Israel. It's happening as we are talking and if we can't stop situations like this, there's going to be a lot of bigger traumas, bigger mental health issues to deal with globally. And imagine even the kids who are even watching the news today, kids who hear about the war. They are being exposed to something that is very traumatic and this, to me, is very important for folks to understand and hear as a story and feel responsible about it. I think you mentioned a really important thing. There was a situation for you that you eventually started understanding what, for example, unconditional love means, and that, I think, for itself, is a huge privilege and the fact that you had such healthy relationship that you could learn it through a relationship. What are the other ways that you think like, beside the organizational, beside the relationship that you're in, what are the other ways that you think people can expose themselves to relearn, to unlearn what they learned in the past? 

Nasibeh
Guest
28:15
It's very hard, you know, to unlearn this stuff, but it's not impossible. Definitely, one of the best ways is therapy. Yeah, that's why I've started this. This is definitely therapy. You know the same as you take care of your physical health, you go to the gym or you know three times. A lot of people are getting into this knowledge that you have to do, you know exercise, you know and take care of your body and the same thing. I think therapy is like a gym for mental fitness really, and if you're trying to hit the gym, for example, three times a week, at least one time a week, it's better to get therapy and the therapist itself. It can be like that trainer, the fitness trainer, you know, that guide you, your supervisor or someone. 

28:58
It's not that for some people, maybe without having a therapist, they can, you know, do some self-taught, you know, look into themselves, looking in, listening into great podcasts. You know information. A lot of information is out there. If you are a person, you can seek those information yourself. Definitely, the information is the key. First, you need to have the knowledge and information, but to apply that you need help. You know you need help from somebody who can guide you. So that's where you go to therapy. 

29:26
I think, and in therapy there are different approaches. It depends on you know the approach. Some of them they give you some exercises looking into you know the schemas that you've it's been created through your childhood. And another approach would be like, maybe looking into you know, I don't know if you can unlearn it, but at least to have a happier life is like to find the meaning for your life. I think this is like you know, you may have all of the pains and everything from before, but to go forward because you know to head to the right direction or the direction that you feel it is happier for you, I think you have to sit down and convert that pain into a purpose If you're living a purposeful life. I mean, like I know that we were supposed to talk about, like what is mental health. 

30:14
I think a person who has like a good level of mental, mentally in a good state, is like a person who has a purpose in life and who can understand, like their feelings and put a space between feelings and reaction and control their reaction. But this needs a lot of practice, definitely to get there. But the first step is to watch it. You know, to watch your feelings. If you're angry, it doesn't you know. You are not angry, it's your feelings, so your reaction can be something different. So start doing that and get help. I think professional help is one of the main tools that is out there to help you. 

Ali
Host
30:54
Well said, I just want to highlight what you said about mental health, and it looks like you've done it for your own life. 

31:04
Like you found that purpose and you turned it into Madeinfinite, which is the great platform it is today. I'm saying it as a user it's not a paid advertisement, by the way. I'm saying it as a user that, for the great platform it is, it's providing happiness. It's helping people to also find their purpose through great conversations with the great folks you are choosing as far as the professionals globally. Speaking of MedInfinite, I think it's also important for folks to hear the story, because you mentioned it to me before. I think it's very interesting for people to hear a little bit of a background about this specific, why MedInfinite started happening and coming to reality. If you want to share that story with us, that would be great as well. 

Nasibeh
Guest
31:53
As an immigrant myself. So I've seen, you know, the struggles that a lot of immigrants went through. But the inspiration moment for me was that I had a real, like close friend who were living in Europe, one of the Norse's country in Europe, and she was going through an illness at the time that she was not, like you know, in a great mental situation. At the same time, what happened is that she lost her mom at the same time and that was, like you know, like a huge trauma for her, which is, I think, for everybody of course, at that time, like we wanted to help, but at the same time I felt guilty that I'm not even there for her, even to give her a hug. You know, we were like in Canada and she was something somewhere else, and then COVID hit and you couldn't travel, even like. We were trying to plan, you know, to go there and we be with her at least for a couple of days, but we couldn't even do that. So I felt a huge guilt burden and at the same time we were trying to convince her to see a therapist. You know you have to go talk to someone, you know. But the thing is that and she did that, not that she didn't, she did that. She went to a therapist in the country that she's living in. But she came to me and said that's even they don't understand me, like I, when I tell them that I'm the only daughter in this family, I'm the only daughter of my mom. So we had that kind of relationship. They don't understand me like it doesn't. You know it is. It doesn't have any benefits if I talk more, because they don't get it. They don't get it. So every time she went to like a therapy session come back like they don't get it. And that was the moment for me that I understood, like the importance of cultural and understanding. You know how you have been brought up and what type of family. You know what was the culture in that family and all of these. 

33:44
And then I started to to research and you know, do my own research on that and first we tried to find a good therapist, like from Iran, for her like, which was like not easy at that time, and we went through a lot of ups and downs and I think she started the couple of sessions but then she didn't continue. 

34:03
You know, finding a right therapist is very hard. So that was the moment and then I started to, yeah, review and do a lot of interviews with people from other cultures. So I I talked to my friend from Colombia and they said the exact the same thing from people from Mexico, peru or crying, like even Romania, even here, like a person who emigrated a long time ago and there, like kids were born here from Italy, they told me the same thing. They said we couldn't find somebody, like you know, we can connect with, like I really like to find the therapist. Like you know, my, my teenagers can go with, but you know they can have a good connection. I'm just standing, even they are a second generation here, but they have the same issue. So, after all of this, yeah, so I started to to look into building mid-infinity that's. 

Ali
Host
34:57
That's an amazing story in a way that I can just say from product perspective, like the, the, the problem is very clear. You caught that very clear problem, took it out and now, okay, what can I do for this problem statement that I'm so passionate about? And you did the research, like the fact that it's very interesting, the fact that you came out of your fixated potential place, that you could be fixated. You could be just like, oh yeah, I'm gonna just to build a, build a platform that works for my Iranian folks. You could just say that. And but no, you expanded your research and you validated your hypothesis that, hey, colombians, ukrainians, all of these other nations were immigrants or from the diaspora community. Here they feel the same way. This is a big problem, that that is small problem. Then now you also proved that that there's already a big problem and I want to solve it. It's so fascinating and I love, I love that passion. Now, what is the next step for mid-infinity, like, where do you think you should be headed to solve this big problem? 

36:09
this is a big, big question this is a billion dollar question, by the way, billion dollar question. 

Nasibeh
Guest
36:14
So I was talking, you know, with this like, uh, visionaries, like from per VC and others, like I wanted them to help me. Where, where should I go? I mean to scale, because you know that's like a huge problem, as you said, and I've actually started to hire some therapies from Colombia and other Spanish language countries, because you know my platform right now it is open for for C speaking people, but you know to go to the next market if we want to talk business and talk about, for example, spanish people, because, like, we live in California, so I think about 20 million Spanish language people here, so it is the same problem for them too. So we started doing that. But but this is still my own question. I'm a, I'm still looking into where is the best, you know the best direction to go to benefit more people. You know, if I just go to, you know open it for other cultures, is it the the answer? Or if I go towards you know building training, you know any like AI models to to understand that you know now that you easily can talk to this like machine or whatever, maybe they can help you. 

37:31
But I think the the the ultimate solution is not just, um, you know AI because, um, the thing is that we want that human connection. We don't want you, you just go by yourself a lot of these issues of loneliness and everything it becomes because of all of these. You know technology development and you know social media like app and stuff. So we don't want to to make another app that you just, you know, spend time on the app, but something that you, you can get to, that connection with a human or a specialist, or you know your therapist, but whenever it's needed it's because you know sometimes you are. 

38:11
It depends on the level of you know help and support that you need. But for some people it is okay, they can do a lot of things on their own and whenever it's needed they can connect, you know, with the professional. But for some other people, no, maybe they definitely need to see a therapist every week, or you know more than that. It's it depends. So I think the direction maybe is like to to identify those level and then give them the help that they need, but considering always that that cultural aspect, because I think that's that's the main thing that is missing from all of the you know services that you are getting in here, for example, or even other countries, and that's what definitely I want to focus and add it into any solution. 

Ali
Host
39:02
I think one question that I know it's a question of a lot of my friends, but selfishly this is a big question for me these days, as I'm working on my own projects is how can we optimize those therapy sessions technically? 

Nasibeh
Guest
39:20
Yeah, that's a great question. So, definitely, people can, you know, increase their knowledge. I think knowledge would, would add a lot to you in any aspect. But one main thing would be, you know, to, to, to start to looking into yourself, my thing, to go back to looking into yourself and build the relationship with yourself. People are in different levels so I cannot say, you know, everybody can do it, you know, at first, but it's, it's good to start looking into yourself, you know, to reflect into yourself. Do, do, do the stuff. That is like if you look anywhere they will suggest you to do. 

39:59
Start journaling, for example, writing, you know, start to try to bring what is on on your unconscious, you know, bring it to conscious and then to start realize, okay, what is the problem. 

40:10
If you find the problem maybe you don't exactly find the problem, you need the help, but you know that you have. You need help in some issue and then you go to therapy and other than that. One other main thing in mental health, I think is like being connected to the world and being present in whatever you do. For example, if you're working, you know, engage with your work, like, know exactly what you're doing. If you're talking with someone being present, you know at the discussion, understand it, anything if you're working, you know being present at the moment. So, overall, this would be, I think, being present and being mindful. Yeah, that I think is a great step. If you start doing that, even if you go therapy to therapy, definitely one of the first approaches maybe is to start meditation and doing being mindful and then, when you are trying to do that and you know being present, I think you start or write, writing and journaling, you start to get a lot of information from yourself. 

Ali
Host
41:11
I totally agree with you. When you start like writing or even drawing because I know some folks like to draw or doodle it just a word comes out of your head and you're like, oh, that was it, so I can just put it in a parking lot for now, do my work and maybe find a therapist to continue discussing what I just found out by doing this journaling or doodling. I think it's really interesting. It gives you things to work on later rather than to be busy with. I did a lot of journaling back in my grad school, thanks to my mentor who kind of forced it to us, Like he told us buy this notebook and every day write one page and he was collecting it. 

41:58
He was not looking at it per se, but he was collecting it to make sure everyone did it. It's just like back in like high school or even earlier, like our teachers were collecting our notebooks to see if we did the assignment. He was doing that and I think it was very interesting for me to force myself for a while and I was going through a lot of like emotion during that time for so many reasons and I started like figuring out okay, this is not that bad, I was able to put it on paper. I was able to put some of my emotions on paper. Great, there's a parking lot, this and this notebook, pretty thick, there's a parking lot for it. Already I can work it, work on my thesis. 

42:41
It was just and I didn't have even time nor money to do therapy at that time. That was the best way for me to have a parking lot of stuff so that I can work on it later. So I think what you were saying about journaling is really. I just wanted to echo this. It's really helpful and I've seen it working for my own life. Is there any specific type of journaling that you would recommend? 

Nasibeh
Guest
43:08
To start you don't need any specific. You know there are some, some journaling you can find outside that they ask you a question every day that you can write about it. If you don't know what to write at all, if you don't know, you can get help from them, you know, they ask you, you know. Or gratitude journal Maybe you can start from gratitude journal. Just write some, you know, like three things that you're grateful for today and then next day. That's one, one way of starting doing it. 

43:34
If it is hard to think about what to write about, you can, you know, get some hints and some questions to write about. But honestly, other than that, if you have, you know you're, you have a lot of things you know in the background of your mind and thinking, and don't let you focus on your job If you bring it out and write it down whatever it is that you're thinking, even at the moment that you just want to write whatever is in your mind, just write it down. You know this is one way I think when you start it, if you can, you can find your way. You know what is more effective for you. So, but I think any of this, like if you answer questions or do anything any, any um, any way that you started, it's going to be beneficial. 

Ali
Host
44:21
Absolutely so. This is a. This is a question I always love to ask folks, even though that you already touched on some of them. Uh, you're doing a lot to help people to stay mentally sane. You're providing a service. You think about it on a daily basis. What do you do for yourself? How do you keep your own mental health saying like if you want to package it or if you want to uh share some of the biggest one with folks who are listening? 

Nasibeh
Guest
44:55
Yes, um, I think we talked about some of this, but for me, one of the most important one was to find my purpose in life, you know. But I put that mission in my life, that you know, I want to help others and serve others. So I was listening to some podcasts yesterday, um, and listening to Arthur Brooke. He's like, uh, yes, he's like a Harvard professor and he's teaching happiness, you know, how to how to live a happy life. And so, according to him, and I learned that the four things that people think that they need but this is not really what they need is like money, power, fame and pleasure. But this, you need to use this towards the four pillars which is important to your life, which is faith, friends, family and work to serve, work as a service. So I think, for me, that work as a service was missing. That's what I find out, you know, because I wanted to be impactful, I wanted to have like a, uh, some effect in people's life which I can see, I can relate, you know, I can connect to people. So I wanted to serve people. So that was missing. So I changed, you know, I changed my life. I make this project for myself and then I brought it to life. Uh, so I can um, I can um, change. You know a lot of people's life. But other than this and this is important because you know, when you do some work and you say why, why am I doing this, why am I in this meeting? You know, a lot of times, like when you're bored from what you're doing, but when you have like a purpose, you know why you are doing this, you know why you have this meeting, you know why you're talking, you know what. So that's like make everything more pleasant. I think that's uh, that was the main thing for me. But other than that, I love to be connected with nature. That was always like um, I used to go hiking a lot, or even camping, and I suggest backcountry camping. When you go like backcountry camping and you don't get at least one, two days like off the grid, that's like uh, where you start, uh, thinking you know and see the main needs of human. You know you think that you need a lot of things. When, when you go like back on your hiking, you say, oh, I don't need any of this, you know, I just need to be alive, and that's like you know making the food, that's like a huge chunk of the day, is just, you know, when you go find the water and you come here, you know, make some food to eat and being alive. 

47:25
And so connecting, being connected with nature, is, is, is one of the main ones, I would say, and walking. So sometimes we go like to nature and walking and sometimes in San Francisco, let me do just urban hiking and walking. So pretty much, um, everywhere we go in San Francisco, we walk there, like, even if it's one over or like one and a half hours, we just walk there. And walking is, I think, very important, even during last year, you know,  the Mahsa Amini Movement. So what helped me a lot to stay focused on, you know, what I'm doing is was just walking. So sometimes I'm, you're just going out and walked for three, four hours or five hours, just walking and come back. So that's, I think, for me, these are all the tools that I try to use. 

Ali
Host
48:20
You said something about like serving others and it's so interesting and I think in my perspective and in my experience it's. It is such a great psychological trick that by serving others and you said it very well because you can see it, you can see the impact I think it kind of like subconsciously, it gives us a hope that if it's working on others, it's also working on me. We're kind of like projecting what success we can help. For example, if I'm helping with some someone's mental health, if someone tells me hey, nancy Bale or Ali, but when you did this that saved my life, you are more hopeful that I can also use the same thing myself and it's helping me. 

49:04
For me it happened when I was doing the meditation podcast and I'm still doing it in Farsi and I think it was like right around episode 17 or 18, where I started like fearing and seeing that, oh, it's working on other people, oh, it can work on you. My voice even changed like a starting episode. I think I told you last time we met my voice started changing episode 18, 19 because I started loving myself. I started like figuring out and seeing that self in me and I'm like if that worked on them, that should work on me, like I've done meditation for years but honestly, the only time I actually felt it working was the starting episode 18 of season one. 

49:54
Another usual question we love to ask our guest is and I believe in this a lot If we are saying let's do something, if we are promoting something, we should do it ourselves first. Like, if I'm telling my audience in the Farsi podcast let's do 10 day, 10 minute challenge of meditating and not eating added sugar, I should be the first one doing it and it works. It again works for me more than anyone. I want to know if there is any activity that you would like to do with our audience or you would recommend it so that you also do it and then they can also do it with you at the same time. 

Nasibeh
Guest
50:35
I wanted to offer therapy, but maybe that's not something that we can offer to everybody, but I think journaling would be. I would say start journaling, start writing, start writing every day. Maybe just put an alarm or something for yourself, like in the morning or at night, like before, any time that works for you. Just five, 10 minutes, that's it. You don't need to say, oh, I don't have time, I'm too busy, or just 10 minutes, start you know, just write whatever is in your mind and make that a habit. If we can make that a habit, then down the road you can see the benefits of that. So maybe I commit to that. 

Ali
Host
51:16
Yes, there we go. So we are going to have you committed for 30 days to journal and whoever wants to join an SCB for this challenge will put a link on the show notes. They can also join that. I also wanted to and this is one thing that's been working for me, even still recently. 

51:36
I'm trying to add more new atomic habits per se or routines to my day-to-day. I think one thing that with journaling it helps is just put one notebook next to your bed and pair that with you waking up or going to bed. Before going to bed, that becomes like this atomic habit for you to take your notebook, write few lines, close it. When you wake up, write it, close it, put it again next to your drawer. If you have anything next to your bed, just keep it next to the bed, keep it under your pillow. It's there. You don't have to do anything else every time and I think that pairing is also helping a lot to turn that to a habit. Is there any final thought? Anything we didn't discuss, anything you'd like to share with the audience, or anything? 

Nasibeh
Guest
52:29
Thank you so much for the conversation. It's just one point People, sometimes it's like kind of a misunderstanding that if you are in a good mental health, mentally in a good level, it's like you don't ever get sad or you don't feel unhappiness or you don't angry or you don't fear of something. It's not the case. You definitely, right now, I'm saying, oh, I have the purpose, I have this, I have that I help myself to be in a better situation. But it is not that I don't get sad. I definitely get sad sometimes. I have all of those feelings. 

53:05
But the important thing is that to learn something out of it and grow and grow and put your efforts in the direction that you want. I think that's important to know that if people think, oh, why I'm unhappy today, it's not something wrong with you. This is human. Yeah, you have all of these feelings and you definitely is not that you can eliminate some of them. It's not like that. So that was the point that I think I wanted. It is important to know and understand and for everybody that's and everybody has all of these ups and downs every day. 

Ali
Host
53:36
Since you brought it up, I want to know if you have any thoughts on how to catch those moments. 

Nasibeh
Guest
53:42
So one main thing for me is that if I'm sad, I'm sad. I don't try to make myself out of it immediately. 

53:51
I just take some time to feel it Like, okay, I haven't like, not the whole day or like, but at least half an hour okay, or one hour I feel sad. Yes, I'm unhappy. Maybe after sometimes schools can think about the reasons and what happened and you know if you can help yourself in any other way. But I think one way is just don't have frame of it. If you're sad, you are sad. You know. If maybe there is a reason you can find about it later. But at the moment I'm not against it. Sometimes I'm just. 

54:25
I know that, you know it's a huge burden on me or anything, or I'm overwhelmed, I want to cry. I cry. I'm not, like you know, trying to fight with it. I take it and then, and then you know, after I cry, I have better feeling, you know. Okay, I can think about it productively, maybe why this is it, or if anything happened that's at first I misunderstood it, or that had like makes me angry or sad, then I can think about solution to that, you know. But after that time I think you need to take that time of just feeling it. 

Ali
Host
55:04
Our bias for having a solution like if we feel something negative, or to some negative per se feelings, we quickly want to like fix it or oh, I'm happy, I'm unhappy, let's go grab a beer, let's go do this, like so that I'm happy. No, if you're unhappy, the way you said it for us is a good reminder that if you're unhappy, just feel the unhappiness, just let it give it a time. Give it like few minutes, few hours, feel it, experience it, observe it Exactly exactly. Okay, next time. Here's on. 

Nasibeh
Guest
55:42
For me, one thing is that I don't know if this works for everybody or not, but if I have a bad day, I know tomorrow is another day. This always reminds myself like you know, okay, tomorrow I start again, you know, but I let today be a down day. Like I have some downtime today, but tomorrow I start again. It's always on the mind that tomorrow is a new day, is another day. 

Ali
Host
56:08
That's a great affirmation for end of the day. Every time, if you're journaling, end it with like tomorrow is another day. Thank you so much. If there's nothing else, we can end the conversation here. I would love to hopefully have you later, maybe next year, again on the show and see and hear about the progress of MedInfinite. I wish you and the company and your family best things. This is as we are recording this. This is December 1st. We are almost end of the year, so I think when we are going live with this is after the new year. So happy new year to those who are listening, happy new year and happy holidays to you and your family. Well, thank you so much. 

Nasibeh
Guest
57:03
Thank you so much for hosting me. I enjoyed this conversation. I hope like the audience also enjoyed it and yeah, I would love to come back and talk more. 

Ali
Host
57:11
Awesome, thank you. Thank you so much, Nasibeh.