00:00
Speaker 1
It's just different levels of imposter syndrome. And for me, one thing that's helped me lower it is just challenging my beliefs. For example, can I get on this podcast? It's one of those things that, you know, can I do it? Maybe? Yeah, I think, you know, I can. But, you know, I challenge myself to, like, what would happen if I didn't, you know, I would probably miss out on a good conversation with you and I having a deep, meaningful connection. You know, I try to focus then on the benefits that I can get by focusing on, you know, what would I miss out on and challenge those beliefs of imposter syndrome that are causing that root cause and seeing, you know, what would happen if you didn't. 

 00:52
Speaker 2
Hello and welcome to the Ally show. My name is Ali Islamifar and I'm your host for the show. We are here with episode number twelve where we are chatting with Tudor Matei. Tudor is a great friend of mine. We used to work at course hero together where he was an engineering manager and ended up being one of the engineering directors. Recently, he started pursuing a new career in becoming engineering coach to help engineers to become their best version of themselves. And when I noticed his shift in the career, I asked him to come on the show so that he can share his story with us. In this conversation, we are talking about some of the challenges in the work environment, mostly caused by imposter syndrome. 

 01:37
Speaker 2
He is sharing his experience dealing with imposter syndrome and some of the tactics that he has been using recently to deal with that, and he's applying those when he's coaching or managing engineering teams. We are also discussing how we can tactically improving some of the conversations and one ones that managers have with their teams that can actually impact their mental health. Similar to all of our episodes, Tudor also brought an accountability campaign for this episode, which is to take some time off from our desk or whatever we are doing behind our monitors. And I thought, actually, this is so interesting and I am personally going to use it to take time away from my phone. So stay with us to the end of the show and tutor will have more to share about this accountability campaign. 

 02:32
Speaker 2
As always, I would love to remind everyone, if you're suffering from any mental health issues or you're feeling that something is not right, please immediately contact your medical or mental health experts to get the help that you need. This episode is also marking one year of the Ally show. This is a very important day for me, hosting this show for about a year now. I remember first when I started recording the first episode with Brad Winters, it was so stressful. I didn't know where it's going and I'm so excited to see in a year how much I was able to learn from these conversations and hopefully I've been able to share some valuable stories with you all as well. 

 03:17
Speaker 2
So if you also found this podcast helpful, the best way to support us is by subscribing to our YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcast channels and by writing us up to a five star review. You may also share this podcast with your friend, which allows us to reach an audience who may benefit from such content. Once again, I'm so thankful that I've been able to share this space with you all in the last year and I'm hoping to continue sharing all I'm learning in mental health. And now, without further ado, let's start our conversation with tutor Matej. All right. All right. We are here with Tudor Matey, one of the great friends and former co workers. 

 04:08
Speaker 2
We both worked at course hero for a while together in a team, and recently I noticed he has been switching to doing coaching for engineering folks and it's been exciting to catch up in the past few weeks and I asked him to show up on the show. So welcome to there. We would love to get this conversation started with you by introducing yourself and tell us a little bit about your story. I mean, I know some of it, but I'm so excited for everyone to get to know you a little bit better. 

 04:43
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you, Ali. So, yeah, my name is Tudor. I've been working 15 years in the tech industry, all kinds of startups and I small businesses. And my journey really began as a software engineer. Well, journey really began as loving computers when I was young and playing games, playing in, you know, all kinds of programming languages and everything from like cube basic, visual basic, like super elemental stuff. And then in high school, I really started taking it seriously with like AP courses that I was taking for computer science. And then it's like, okay, I think I can do this as a career. This sounds fun. So I went for a CS degree and got my CS degree, then went and got my master's too, because I thought, you know, this is the path to go and do things. So that was my plan. 

 05:48
Speaker 1
I've finished that. And then when I went into the industry, I started working at these small companies. Course was the first place that I really wanted to give management a try. And with management it was, you know, I came in there with the hopes that I could get into management as soon as I could. And then the position was opened up, had a lead program in there which helped us train as managers. So myself and another person went through that program. It was super useful to understand what it's like to learn some of the soft skills. What is it like to have one ones with people, performance reviews. So everything except like HR and dealing with money related things and vacation was done through that program. 

 06:43
Speaker 1
And it was like the best six months of learning experiences that I got the opportunity to learn what it's like to be a manager and then have that choice at the end if I want to be a manager or not. And ironically, the other person I was with in the program decided to stay in IC and really loved just being IC, wanted to try management and it wasn't for them. And I think just having that choice was really powerful. That's one thing I want to do for others as well. But just going back a little bit to, I got to senior engineering manager and director at Coreciro and it was a layoff that happened last year in December that was part of, and initially I thought that was something that was. 

 07:35
Speaker 1
So it was, it just came out of nowhere almost, you know, taking a look back, that was like the best thing that happened to me. And I didn't realize how stressed I was at work and how many meetings I had. You know, I was probably like 80, 90% time in meetings. And, you know, I just didn't have time for anything else. And I really sat down and thought about, what can I do? What is it the next stage for me? And, you know, actually, Ali, you were the one who kind of, you know, I started talking with you as well in that timeframe and noticed, you know, you're doing your own thing. You got a little bit out of tech industry. And so I was thinking one of the things that I really enjoyed was just being like, coaching other engineers. 

 08:29
Speaker 1
You know, started with mentoring and then I started doing coaching. And I really enjoyed seeing that career progression and seeing my engineers and engineering managers just have that, like, seeing their inner essence of how they can build that by themselves with my help. So I was just a guide, you know, instead of just telling them what to do at every step of the way, I give them, hey, these are the guidelines that you have to meet. How do you want to achieve them? How do you want to do this? And I think that really resonated with people and it's helped their career make that progression. So I said, hey, when I try to do this as my own business, so I started my own business in coaching, and I've been doing that since. That's kind of my story on how I got here. 

 09:24
Speaker 2
That is in so many ways, I have a lot to say. I think one is what I remember from the time that we worked together. You had a very specific management style that I know for a fact. By the way, Dennis says hi. He told me to tell you. He says hi. I remember engineers really loved to get your coaching and youre straight to the point sort of engineering management, but at the same time, you had kind of, like, you always had their back, but very straight to the point. That's one thing I vividly remember. The other thing is, like, I also can recall, like, how much we both, and sometimes separately, spend times in meetings, which was draining for myself, like, looking back, just like what you were saying, like, it was such a draining experience. 

 10:22
Speaker 2
Not for, not just for managers or, like, folks who are responsible about delivering a project, but also, like, honestly, for anyone who was a stakeholder, it was time spent on meetings, both during COVID which went remote, and also, like, when were in person. It was just, like, such a tough time for me personally to handle all those meetings. I know there are people out there who have no problems with back to back meetings. I figured now looking back, I figured I actually have problems. And now that I have more control on my time, I am able to, like, separate these times and sometimes planned plan easily. No meeting day for myself, plan no meeting month for myself. Like, last month was like a no meeting month for me. So I kind of want to tap on that a little bit. 

 11:14
Speaker 2
Like, as an engineering leader, how do you think, like, folks should be thinking about managing their time in a tech environment? Because this can be really impacting their mental health. And that's, as a matter of fact, why I care about this topic here. What is your perspective on that, and what are the tools you would recommend to manage that time? 

 11:33
Speaker 1
Yeah, actually, it reminds me of a video I just saw from Alex Homozy, and he was talking about maker time and creator time, and it was super useful, and it really opened up my eyes on what it's like. So he basically was talking about creators. Like, the managers who have their schedule is based on how many things can I fit in? If I have empty slots, I'm probably not the most efficient manager. And the creator's time is people, like, who are in IC or, you know, making videos. They're doing things outside that requires deep focus. So having a certain amount of time set aside and not being interrupted by that time. So I think managers and ICs tend to have different kind of schedules that are needed, and it's important to understand their schedules like that. 

 12:34
Speaker 1
So, example, for my team, I try to schedule a lot of the team meetings and things within certain blocks of time. And we'd have like meetings in the morning on Mondays, and then I'd leave note meetings for them on Tuesday so that maybe they can focus. And then we had no meeting Wednesday. So doing things that they can chunk out a certain time that they can focus, write code, come up with documentation, new ideas, we have to be able to brainstorm from teams. It's important to have those focus blocks. As a manager, my schedule was totally different, which was, let's see how much I can fit in my day, because I'd rather just get those out of the way and make myself. I had no meeting Wednesday, which if anybody scheduled on that, I'd be like, try another day. 

 13:25
Speaker 1
So for my team, it was every Wednesday, for the company, it was every other Wednesday. We were trying out that aspect and that really worked out well. And I think a lot of team members really appreciated that, especially since conversation were on Slack. And as a team, we decided the SLA is about 2 hours on Slack, so we didn't have to get back to each other immediately. So give them some of that extra time for them to focus and not have to respond to messages. 

 13:59
Speaker 2
So you designed a two hour delay for messages on Slack? Is that, is that what I heard? Because I didn't catch that properly, no. 

 14:08
Speaker 1
So basically what I allowed my team to do is basically turn off the notifications on Slack if they want for an hour or two. And if it was something important, I can mark it as urgent and send it and notify right away because there's that option. But oftentimes nothing is really that urgent. Then I can send them a message. When they get back, they'll look at it and there's no need for that. Checking emails, checking slack, and they can just focus on their work. 

 14:35
Speaker 2
It's very helpful to hear that detail here because I remember, I'm trying to remember exactly the time that were working in person, in offices, not just in our company, but their places. Like black was just a place for me to put my thoughts and or maybe just share a link or I don't know, like share a document that I want someone to review, share a design back in the design time that I wanted someone to review or send a screenshot. Like it was just a place to have a wall of thoughts and broken discussions, and the rest of the discussion was, for me, was happening in person. If it was that important of a conversation, I could walk and I could just go to that person, or I like to respect their boundaries. 

 15:26
Speaker 2
I could say, okay, I know they have meeting aids, or it's the morning, I will go there in an hour or two if I don't hear anything. It was that sort of an experience for me before COVID hit and everything went remote. But when Covid hit, I felt like one of the most frustrating thing for me at work, washing, just getting all those slack notifications. And I just always felt like. And given my role, I felt like I have to react to this so quickly. This engineering manager is looking for this answer. The C level is looking for this answer. I have. And that urgency was so hard for me to even prioritize. So this process that you developed with your team seems kind of like immicking the real work environment that we used to have. 

 16:14
Speaker 2
Like, the message is there, they will look at it in an hour or two if they want to, and then if it's urgent, I will push the urgent notification. It's like, if it's urgent, I will walk to that person's desk to talk with them about this thing. So I really like that, and I wish I would have implemented it for my teams. One of the other thing you mentioned was experience of layoff. You felt at the time that, oh, yeah, it was a shock. It came out of nowhere, but then it was the best thing happened to you. Can you tell us a little bit more about this duality here? Because at the same time, it's very shocking. Maybe it comes with some pain or, I mean, some stress, of course. And then you figure out, this is the best thing. 

 17:00
Speaker 2
I want to know why there is this duality, and if you can describe it. 

 17:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. So I was working at Corsair for five and a half years, so that was the longest place I've ever been at. And I worked in the document uploading side of things, which it was sort of like job security in a way, because the site would always need somebody to upload documents until Chatsupt decided to just changed the entire course, kind of like Covid for edtech companies, you know, cha Gupta just kind of changed the whole layout. So it was just interesting that, like, it came as a shock because I didn't think that they would get rid of my teams and restructured that drastically as a company. But that said, after the shock came off, it was just like, okay, what do I do? Now, I mean, I don't know what to do because I haven't done anything to my resume. 

 18:13
Speaker 1
I haven't even been in the job search, and I knew the market wasn't that great. And I started applying and going through that whole process for, I think it was like, two and a half months, and then pick out a couple of interviews, things like that, and it was just draining the whole process. There's a book called never search alone, and I don't know if you heard about it, but they form these JSC groups, and one of the things that you do in there as a team, you get together with other people and do job searching together, help each other in whatever ways. And one of the things was a moonkin two pagers in there, which focused on the things that I love, things that I don't like, things that I'm passionate about. And that's where coaching came from. 

 19:07
Speaker 1
So, for me, that was actually the turning point, where it's like, all these things are not things that I'm looking from the engineering workload that I'm doing. I mean, I love working with engineers, and why can I do just coaching with them and learn from them and the way they've done things? So that turning point happened for me, and it was. It was liberating, and it was just something that I could take and have some kind of control. So, for me, it. It was about being able to take control of my life back again instead of leaving it up to somebody else by working for somebody else. So. But it's definitely been challenges, and trying to be one person business is super difficult, but I'm working through it. 

 20:04
Speaker 2
I know from at least my own research so far, this is by observation, I don't have, like, massive number of data points here, but folks who end up in coaching and find that path in coaching, there's at least two things in common between all of them. One is someday they had a very good coach that inspired them, or at least as a role model. And then two, there is a story behind it. There's a story behind why they care about helping people and see them grow. So I want to start with the first one. If you had a good role model and a good coaching life, who inspired you or that, or someone that you've been looking up to in that perspective? 

 20:52
Speaker 1
Yeah. So that actually was my boss, Hale. She's amazing. Yeah, she's amazing. And I'm glad you got to meet her before you ended up leaving Corciro. You know, initially started off with a good relationship as a mentor and she's helped me pave the way to director and, you know, we got there together with her help. But one thing she started doing about a couple years ago is starting taking coaching classes at Berkeley and she got a certification and all kinds of things. And she started implementing that in our one ones. And, you know, we had weekly 1 hour one ones, like, and were talking the whole time and it wasn't status updates. You know, I can give that to her anytime. It was not important. 

 21:47
Speaker 1
And we had really good conversations on, she was working with that, you know, mentoring me and things, but it eventually turned into coaching and I really enjoyed and that's how I ended up using coaching for my team because I saw that impact that she was making on me. So then I can do that the same thing to my teams as well. So that was the person who's inspired me on that. 

 22:14
Speaker 2
That's amazing. And just for folks who don't know her because I was lucky to know her, I think we almost worked for about a year while I was there. What was special about her style? Can you tell us a little bit more about what made hale the special person and the special coach that is a role model to you? 

 22:37
Speaker 1
I think she was always looking for what's best in finding your strengths. So she'd work on finding the strengths and focusing on those. And whenever you had any kind of mindset pitfalls, she would challenge those and figure out, why are you thinking that way? Why do you think, you know, you have these maybe intrusive thoughts or impostor syndrome. So I think it's whenever I fell down in any kind of way, it was almost like speaking with a therapist where she would help me get over that and be able to lead the teams again. So I think that was really powerful. 

 23:21
Speaker 2
That's interesting. And I think in my experience, I also always admired the coach and managers or mentors who didn't use those times we had for status updates. I remember I had a very good manager and he was using most of our one one times just to go through our plan to like, hey, what's missing? If I'm going to be growing in my role or what I'm going to be doing, what are the missing parts? What are some of the tensions I feel like in my personal or professional life? So he was, like really caring about that and he was really good at, on the other hand, he was really good with getting status updates from his team. He had this organized process of like, here's this document. 

 24:14
Speaker 2
Here's that every Monday, every Friday, there was very specific plans for those days to get those status updates offline, managing multiple product managers, and then at the same time using that time. I think having that balance is very special, seeing it in managers and mentors. Now switching to the second part, I want to know what's your story? And I'm guessing, or I'm hoping it's also related to some of the stories that you want to share about the story of your mental health. Because this is the mission of this podcast. So if you want to share anything, we would love to start hearing that story or that. Anyway, that story that you want to share with us. 

 25:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. So in terms of mental health, that's been definitely kind of a challenge. And it's had its up and downs. And I think I've been working on my mental health a lot since the layoff. And that's another reason why I think it's been really powerful where it's sort of like I'm discovering myself again. And I don't know if, Ali, you had that kind of same thing when you've left your job, but it kind of gives you something to think about when you're not constantly thinking about all the work that needs to be done. And I keeping your focus on the company. So I've done a lot of research on brain and how can I change it and the whole neuroplasticity and all that. And for me, it has to make sense. It has to make logically sense. 

 25:59
Speaker 1
I can't just say I've heard things like, oh, just tell yourself positive thoughts, that doesn't work on me. And I wanted to figure out why that was. So I actually took a journey on that and looked a little bit into the whole brain, how it works and that we don't have a fixed mindset and how can we rewire it. And for me, the most important thing that I found out was that first you have to be understanding of what are you looking for and why. So for me, it was, I want to find myself and what's really important. And then I said, okay, I need to focus my attention on this piece and taking action. And for taking actions. A lot of it was make sure I'm hitting my goals and my goals were, right now I need to get my business going. 

 27:01
Speaker 1
I want to make a certain amount of money to make sure that I'm not going to go broke just being a coach. Right. And there's a lot of imposter syndrome there that came up and I've had so many ups and downs, and I again thank Hale. Even after the layoff, were actually both laid off at the same time. She started her own coaching business, and she's been coaching me since that time. I've had a really good coach, even past that. So I think that's been super helpful in my mental health. But in terms of practice, what I've done is not necessarily telling myself, oh, this is what I need to do, and telling myself positive thoughts I realized doesn't work because I actually have to believe in it. And for me, what's really worked is using the word could. I could do this. 

 28:04
Speaker 1
Let me try not necessarily to be like, oh, I'm gonna do this. I need to do this. Cause if I put those words in, it really doesn't help me in any way because I don't know if I believe it. So. But in could, this is a possibility, why don't I try it? So that was my side of things. And what's really helped with the coach is that whole accountability side of it, because now I had somebody who was accountable. So within re session, so she was like, all right, so in the next week or next two weeks, what are you gonna do? What are your actions that you're gonna take? And now is telling somebody, I'm gonna do these things and they're holding me accountable. So then I would be asked, why didn't you get them done? 

 28:54
Speaker 1
And then try to dig deeper and further with that. 

 28:58
Speaker 2
That's something that we also love it here, this concept of keeping each other accountable or having accountability partners. And we'll get to that in the end of this conversation. And I want to ask you about that. I am wondering, what are some of specific, actions you took, like, since you started these conversations and how did they change what you're doing and how you're doing them? 

 29:27
Speaker 1
So, one thing I started doing is I wanted to exercise for a long time, and, you know, I'd force myself to get on the treadmill. We have a treadmill in the garage, and I'd force myself to do it and didn't really work out. I said, okay, I'm just going to put a tv show. We have a tv in there, too, so put in a tv show and, you know, go on the treadmill. It was still not working for me. I tried doing weights. I set up a whole weights station. And, okay, maybe if I do something that's more of my muscles didn't really work that well, and then everybody's been pushing me, just go outside for a walk. And I was like, that's so boring. I don't know if I want to waste my time doing that. 

 30:13
Speaker 1
So I was like, okay, I need to do it. And I got myself to do it. Walked around the block once. Nothing new happened. So then I put on some, the headphones, not the ones that cover my ears, but, you know, just around that can also help you hear. And I was listening to podcasts, and that's kind of how I was listening to your podcast as well and catching up. And I was doing that and I realized this is actually kind of enjoyable. I am getting stuff down because I don't feel like I'm still listening to something. I can still hear the nature and the birds, wind, everything else, and it's about the scenery. So for me, it's about to have a path that I take around my neighborhood that I just enjoy. There's not a lot of cars. There's just a. 

 31:08
Speaker 1
A lot of greenery, birds, you know, trees everywhere. So for me, the one thing that's helped, I would say the most is just going for a walk and enjoying 30 minutes, 40 minutes, whatever. You know, it's not timed. I can do whatever pace I want. Listening to something and having that visual aspect of not looking at a screen. 

 31:33
Speaker 2
Interesting, because for someone who is an engineer, we, if I would say we spend a lot of time looking at the screen. Like being in those sort of roles. Like whether you're software engineer, manager, product manager, designer. Like, you're consistently looking at the screen. So you figure having that space and actually going at the different scenery that is not the screen of your laptop or bigger screens, that's kind of like the action that can help you go forward with that mental health pass. I don't want to also miss on that, however you want to share about it. But were you able to kind of, like, tap into that imposter syndrome and understanding where that comes from? What's the story around that? And how have you been managing to kind of, like, get improvements on that imposter syndrome? 

 32:30
Speaker 2
Because it's a very common thing that I know a lot of us are dealing with. So I think it would be good if you can shed a little bit of a light about if you figure the root cause and also what you're doing for that. 

 32:42
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a great question. I think the most important thing that I figured is it's an ongoing thing, and I've been listening to some podcasts and books, and it's not something that goes away. It's just different levels of imposter syndrome. And for me, one thing that's helped me lower it is just challenging my beliefs. For example, like, can I get on this podcast? This is actually my first podcast that I'm being a guest on, so it's a big step for me. It's one of those things that, can I do it? Maybe? Yeah, I think I can. But I challenge myself to what would happen if I didn't. I would probably miss out on a good conversation with you and having a deep, meaningful connection, and then I can share my story with you and the world and everybody else. 

 33:45
Speaker 1
So I try to focus then on the benefits that I can get by focusing on what would I miss out on and challenge those beliefs of imposter syndrome that are causing that root cause. And seeing, you know, what would happen if you didn't. I mean, there could be some positives there. 

 34:07
Speaker 2
Mm. Mm. And if anything, if I want to add on top of it's like, not even positive. It's, it's something that came our way. It's an opportunity. I can just see how it is if I'm interested. If I'm not, I can say no. You know, like, oftentimes I think we have that answer. Hey, Ali asked me to jump on this call for an interview. Do I feel it? Do I not feel it? I feel it. So I just want to go and see what it is. And I think even putting a lot of pressure on and expectations in advance that I'm going to get something positive out of this may even already just trigger something with that imposter syndrome. Whereas you said earlier, oh, I'm just going to have a great conversation with a friend. That's it. And then you never know. 

 35:01
Speaker 2
A lot of great things may come out of it or you may actually not enjoy that. And the good thing is, next time you want to do a second podcast, you know, you shouldn't do it with these sort of, let's say, interviewers or podcasts. And then you start defining your standards. And I think no matter what there is at the moment that somebody tells you, let's do this, I think instantly we have the answers. There's just that feeling that we have it and we just have to call it. And I appreciate that you called it, by the way. 

 35:32
Speaker 1
Well, one thing I would say the one thing that's helped me was having it scheduled. And I know we scheduled it in a far ahead time. And actually, I thought it was a week ahead. So I was like, oh, I can relax and then all of a sudden, oh, I can't. But I actually didn't need to prepare or anything for it. But having it scheduled was really helpful in saying, okay, I'm committed to this. This is my accountability to Ali. That's helped me. 

 36:01
Speaker 2
I can really relate to this. One of the things that has been really helping me is to just schedule, for example, these calls, schedule my other recordings that I have for my Farsi meditation podcast, and then scheduling a few things more regular check ins with folks that I'm working on. Some things with, like ad has been super helpful for me also to get on that. So that is schedule thing. I just want to double tap. Love it. I also want to tap again on kind of like this root cause because we talk about imposter syndrome, and everybody may even put that label on themselves. I'm curious if you think there has been in your lifetime, if there has been triggers that created that imposter syndrome, if you figure it out. And what helped you to figure it out? 

 37:00
Speaker 1
That's a good question. I think most of the imposter syndrome comes from stress, at least for me, and stressful situations that make me challenge my thoughts. If I can do this or if I have enough experience and, you know, like, eventually I want to coach trekkers and execs. I haven't been one. Right? Can I do this? And, you know, I'm working my way there, right, to try to get that courage. But it's, I think it leads a lot of the stress in the past that's caused these imposter thoughts that come in and questioning my credibility or ability to do these kind of things. 

 37:50
Speaker 2
So there's been events that created this feeling or this memory that, oh, yeah, I may fail this or I may not be able to do it. Then every single time or every other opportunity that situation may arise, that feeling is going to be seen. Are there specific events that you think they have had, like, the biggest impact on creation of this imposter syndrome for you? 

 38:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think, honestly, any negative thoughts that were said to me or mentioned a lot of times it doesn't really happen from other people. It's, I interpret something maybe more negatively than it was said, and then that creates, it almost feels like it creates like a new pathway and just kind of reading on the whole neuroplasticity and stuff. It's like that pathway is so set in my brain that it is, you know, the brain tries to take the easiest path to that and, you know, the least energy that it can take. And that is the easiest path for me, and I'm trying to work on that to create the new path, but it's like, it uses a lot of energy, and a lot of times on those days, I just feel drained by the end of the day. But I know I'm making progress. 

 39:10
Speaker 1
So that's kind of my indicator. At the end of the day, if I am feeling just not stressed but out of energy mentally, then I know I've been training my brain to do a different path, and it's a different way of thinking. 

 39:28
Speaker 2
Do you also, in your past experiences and even in your coaching experience, do you also notice that in the engineers who are working with you, how do you recognize it? What are some of the signals? How do you recognize it and how you. You react to it as a mentor and leader? 

 39:45
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think, honestly, with the engineers, it starts with building that trust and vulnerability with them so that they can be open, because if the engineers can't be open with you and have a conversation, they're never gonna say, oh, I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed. I don't know if I can do this. They're just gonna say, okay, I'll do it, you know, and kind of put their head down and try. Right. The past. I'm actually more interested in their challenges and what are they trying to overcome rather than the things that they can do, because I can tell the things that they can do every day. They're showing it through their work, and I'm happy to reiterate it to them as something that I've noticed that they're doing it. 

 40:34
Speaker 1
I'd rather have that knowledge of what is it that drives you to become better and how did you overcome those kind of things and helping them through that process? 

 40:47
Speaker 2
I'm trying to understand what does that conversation look like? Imagine I'm an engineer, and I feel, for whatever reason, I feel I'm not able to take on some task or I feel I'm not enough. I have that imposter syndrome kicking, and we have a one one. Do you have an example, or can you tell us, understand a little bit of what that conversation looked like? What are the things that you may hear? What are the things that you would say or react or put as action items to manage that? Because I feel like it's one of those situations that a lot of us get into at work, and really mimicking it would beneficial for both folks who are mentors and mentees. So if you can mimic that a little bit, that would be very helpful for me to understand this better? 

 41:38
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, let's say I think we can all relate to doing presentations. That's usually something that's difficult for all of us, but especially engineers who are just kind of at their computer all day. And it's about trying to understand what is the root cause of the imposter syndrome that they have. Is it, you know, I'll ask questions like, what's making you think that way? And if it's related to things like, you know, I just don't think I have the knowledge to do this. Then we can focus on. Okay, so what do you know so far about it? And then what do you think you're missing? And then when you're missing that information, you know, how can I help you? You know, gain that, or, you know, how can I help you finish those? You want to review those slides with me? 

 42:30
Speaker 1
You know, and if it's. Let's say if it's, you know, for the presentation with people, it's like, well, maybe you can, you know, what are some ways that you can feel more comfortable? Do you think that practicing it with me would be helpful, or do you want to record yourself and watch your back? What are some ways that work for you? So it's about figuring out for them what is the best way, and challenging those thoughts in such a way that it's not threatening to them. It's about finding out why that's happening for them specifically. 

 43:07
Speaker 2
I think there's a very fine line, and I'm glad you brought it up. There's a fine line between threatening and that feeling of being threatened versus that feeling of being heard and challenged. How do you manage that fine line? Because I've seen it in my case, and I've heard it, of course, from folks that they felt both. Sometimes a manager seemed a little bit threatening. Sometimes a manager seemed challenging. Yeah, I know. It was uncomfortable for me, but I was challenged. I didn't feel threatened. How do you manage that fine line as a leader in a conversation? 

 43:48
Speaker 1
I think it's choosing the right words to use in the context. So a lot of times I do some things like, I noticed this happened. You can tell me more about it, instead of saying, I saw that you were in that meeting and you were being condescending. Right. I could be like, I noticed there was some tension in that meeting. You know, are you okay? Right. Starting with what's going on, maybe there's something that's causing. And then, you know, if they open up, great, continue down that line. They don't, you know, just challenging that and saying, you know, I've heard from some people that this, they felt this way or that way. It's about kind of, nobody can challenge feelings, right? 

 44:35
Speaker 1
If I'm feeling a certain way or if somebody else is feeling a certain way, it's not under their control to change that, right? So they don't feel as threatened. So for me, it's about giving some context, but things that maybe I feel or somebody else has felt, that really helps. 

 44:55
Speaker 2
It resonates with me in a way that, to your point, like what it can challenge feeling. There's also this fine line of, and I'm going to be a little bit descriptive here just to get answer or to kind of like, shift this to this thing that I have in mind. So please bear with me. There is a fine line between thinking something. For example, I've had managers that I can say they were very pissed in a specific moment, but they were trying to choose the right word versus I've had managers that they genuinely seemed curious about why I did something the way I did or why I said something the way I said, so how do you also courage, or how do you think folks can really choose which path they're on? 

 45:54
Speaker 2
Because I think for engineering managers, they should also, or for managers in general, they should also know that, am I really thinking something and trying to find the right word, or am I really curious? What are some of the tools you would recommend for managers to observe themselves at that moment and maybe be aware of what choices they're making? 

 46:18
Speaker 1
You know, you actually gave away the answer while you were talking without even knowing. But at least from my side, it's coming from a sense of curiosity. And that's when I challenge myself of, am I coming from a place of curiosity and trying to figure out, is this person doing this or that? Or are they just stressed out what's really happening versus telling them what's going on, or I telling them what's right or wrong or things like that. Because then you just become this authoritative person that's just telling people what to do, and that's not what people want in managers. 

 47:05
Speaker 2
What are some of the practices you would recommend for managers who may notice this? That, oh, it seems like I've been authoritative sometimes with my team. What are some of the practices that you would recommend for those folks? 

 47:19
Speaker 1
I think it's really about looking at yourself and figuring out what kind of leader you want to become. Because if you do want to become that leader, that's fine. You know, it's about how you want to live your life. Right? So I'm not here to tell you how to lead, but if you're looking to become better as a leader, I think it's important to reflect on the one. On ones that you have with people and how you approach situations. And like I said, like you said, too, just coming from a sense of curiosity and understanding the true issues that people are having and getting to a root cause, rather than just having this high assumptions that are being made a lot of times. Because as a manager, I think 80% of the time, I'm using my gut. 

 48:14
Speaker 1
But if that 20% of the time, I don't want to be wrong in that scenario, I'd rather confirm it and kind of come from that sense of curiosity and confirm my gut, rather than saying, oh, I really think this is happening. 

 48:32
Speaker 2
This is interesting because the fact that there is a difference, there is a. A big difference, like 80% versus 20%. There are things that we can use our guts, but then we can be more efficient for that 20%. We can have more time. We can spend more time for figuring out those 20%. And maybe, again, maybe I'm just coming up with an idea here, but maybe that's why those one ones exist. Maybe that's why those in person times existed, because those 80% of the time, we figured it out on slack or other conversations, like, briefly and boom, check, check. But that 20% of cases, then I have more time. 

 49:15
Speaker 2
So it kind of, like, tells me, doing a lot of these micro management and trying to be available for all those decisions or all those incidents, that's efficient because you can't really highlight those 20% cases that require these more curious eyes of like, oh, okay, I want to. This seemed like this. I want to know more about that. How did you feel in this case? Or how did you feel in that meeting? Or about that code that we pushed a few days ago that really gives you that deep conversation and respecting both sides in that. So I. This is what I conceived from what you were saying. Does that resonate with you? 

 49:59
Speaker 1
Yeah, it does. I think the one difference that I see is micromanagement seems to be based on trying to be in control and trying to control the situation and showing that you're a leader. And you got this right. Through my experience, I've noticed that you're barely in control. I mean, as a leader, you're paving the path, and you're showing people how to do things. I've learned that letting go is actually more helpful for example, micromanaging started initially. I wanted to do sprints a certain way. I wanted to do designs and conversations a certain flow. And then I started letting go of that and just having. The engineers were leading that. So one thing that came out of that is I saw a different perspective. I saw, you know, a different way of doing things. And I've actually learned something new. 

 51:06
Speaker 1
And I think just giving up that control is hard, but once you do it's so powerful because you are learning so many new things that some, you know, you wouldn't have if you had that fixed mindset. So it's shifting to that kind of. 

 51:21
Speaker 2
Growth mindset that's a good differentiation, and I appreciate you calling that out. So I kind of, like, mixed two topics. One was life efficiency in those conversation, and then micromanagement in my head. Someone who has oftentimes been managed. I haven't done much of management. So it's, that's how I look at it in my head. Folks who are assuming too much like managers, who feel more threatening. There are also oftentimes there's a correlation. There are oftentimes those who want to also be more micromanaging. So maybe that's why in my head, and I think it's an interesting phenomenon here, that these two, to me, they feel related and correlated. So I'm glad you made that differentiation. So, there are technically, in your perspective, there are two different things. One has different root cause, another one has another. 

 52:17
Speaker 2
And I think it's important for folks to really be aware and know if they are practicing any of that with their teams. I am kind of aware of, like, the time I want to know, for your mental health, you're doing walking and daily walks. You're putting on amazing podcasts like the Ally Sean, and you listen to those. What are some of the other things that you do for your mental health to make sure you can be the best version of you? 

 52:48
Speaker 1
I'd say the walk has really been the best thing that's happened so far. But one thing I'm trying to do is, realize that, you know, I'm not. The amount of work that I'm sitting and doing in front of the computer is not what I am. That's not who I am, necessarily. And I think in the nine to five jobs were taught, hey, from 09:00 to 05:00 you sit at your desk and you work. And, I'm finally, I'm realizing that, for me, it's taking some breaks and disconnecting my brain helps me be more creative and come up with things that are really more impactful and can focus on creating posts out of nowhere for LinkedIn. Because I'm not sitting down, and I've noticed as I'm sitting down for 2 hours at a time on my desk and working, I'm not making much progress. I. 

 53:48
Speaker 1
I could probably be taking, you know, an hour break and come back and do the same amount of work because now my brain hasn't been fried. You know the way to say that? 

 53:59
Speaker 2
I like what you were saying about like, just doing a lot of that work off the laptop. Like, one thing that I've been also practicing in the last year almost is like, I sort of made this force for myself that like, hey, open the laptop when you have something to do, actually, like, when you have an idea to work on or when you want to browse something that you know what? Because before that, I was feeling that I was just in laptop all the time, to your point. Like, my definition was, yeah, I'm working, I'm busy because I'm behind the laptop and I never use the screens, as you remember, I always only had my laptop even back in the before COVID time, and it was just my thing. Like when I was opening my laptop, that meant I was working. 

 54:46
Speaker 2
Whereas now I have a bunch of notebooks here for different purposes. So if I have an idea about a specific thing that goes into that notebook, I figure it out. I like, put it down and play around with it. And when it's done, I'm like, okay, now what do I need to do? I need to search for this, that, and then email tutor about this. Great, done. And I use this only when. And it sounds pretty simple, but it's. It's life changing. Like, I'm literally spending a lot less time behind the laptop and I'm only using it when I. When it's needed. This is also a good reminder for me to do the same thing with my phone. I'm working on it. I'm working on it. And I know a lot of us are dealing with that, too. 

 55:30
Speaker 2
So it's like this awareness that why do I need this tool for? This is built for a good reason, but why do I need it? It's not the definition of me. It has to be in my service, and how am I going to use it? So I love what you called out, and it was a good reminder for me to be aware of my phone usage these days, at the end of every episode and every conversation, we ask our guests to introduce an accountability campaign. If there is any activity that you would like to be doing with some of our listeners for 30 days, what would that be? 

 56:06
Speaker 1
I would say besides the walks, I recommend everybody to do that. It's helped me greatly. Even if it's a 30 minutes walk, I would say the other one is take some time away from the desk and try to see, because your productivity is not defined by the. How much you type on a keyboard or you look at a screen and see what comes up when your brain is free to think. Kind of like the shower thoughts you have, right? Things, creative things, come up there, and that's where strategies are born. You know, spend, you know, start with like 30 minutes, maybe move it to an hour away from the screen and see what you can come up with in a notebook, you know, journal, doodle, whatever you want to do. 

 56:56
Speaker 2
So they are technically, they can choose what they want to do, but not on the screen. Like, they can go cook event, right? Like, but the time that was supposed to be spent, usually as their regular daily plan, if it was spent on the screen, take that off. 30 minutes, 1 hour. Do something else. Do journaling, doodling, cook, walk, look at the outside, and just like, people watch. Like, whatever that comes to your mind, do that. I love that. And I will definitely do it. I've been. I can do it on my phone if you don't mind. I will cut my phone usage with that approach. I really appreciate it. Tudor, before we close out, is there any final thought? Anything that you want to say about the conversations we had? Anything missing? I would love to hear that. 

 57:48
Speaker 1
No, I think it's been really fun chatting with Yoly and glad to be on your podcast. I really appreciated the conversation. 

 57:56
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for showing up. Thank you for the time and I hope everyone enjoyed this conversation. Have a wonderful day, Tudor, and have a wonderful day, everyone else, thank you. That was our conversation with Tudor Matei. I hope you all enjoyed this conversation. If you would like to join Tudor's accountability campaign, please use the link in the show notes and we'll be reaching out to you when the campaign is about to start. Just as a reminder, the best way to support our show is by following us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and reviewing us up to a five star review. And of course, by sharing us with your friends who may need such content. Thanks again and see you on the next episode of the Ally Show.