00:00
Aref Gharakhani
For me, it had reached the point that I no longer could articulate, what is it? Am I doing? And I think one of my friends asked me some sort of question, like, and it was like maybe one and a half years ago, something in the lines of, hey, man, six years ago, when you started this journey, did you want to be where you are now? And my answer was, hell no. This is not what I wanted not to say. I don't cherish the journey. I don't cherish the learnings. But I realized there is so much that I wanted for myself that I didn't really explore and I could not see that really happening back there. There was so much context that I was living in. 

 00:39
Aref Gharakhani
So for me, like, on very subconscious level, I knew that I had to change in a very dramatic way. 

 00:51
Ali Eslamifar
Hello and welcome to the Ally show. My name is Ali Eslamifar and I'm your host for the show. We are here with our episode 13 where we are chatting with Aref Gharakhani, someone that I actually know from back in Iran. We went to the same school, same program, and now we had the chance to reconnect as he moved to North America, which allowed us to start talking more about things that we are passionate about, including mental health. A little bit more about our today's guest Aref Aref is a seasoned entrepreneur who has played pivotal roles as a co founder and founder, contributing to three successful startups over the past eight years, including the number one on demand delivery network in the Middle east. His journey, primarily focused on product and engineering, has been marked by the intense and chaotic life of an entrepreneur. 

 01:45
Ali Eslamifar
He spent the majority of his life in the Middle east and now he moved to North America. In this episode we are talking about a range of issues that impact our mental health. One is the immigration that Aref is actually talking a little bit about that we are also talking about his entrepreneurship life and things that he had to deal with during his very tough time as an entrepreneur. As always, the best way to support this show is by following us on Spotify and Apple podcasts. You can also review us up to a five star review. Also, recently we have started posting our videos of these conversations on our YouTube channel. I highly recommend you to go and take a look at that and if that's something that you like, please subscribe to that channel as well. 

 02:35
Ali Eslamifar
RF's accountability campaign in this episode is encouraging you to do one thing, one simple task for 30 days. And he has more description about this in the end of this show. And I highly recommend you to listen to it if you're interested in this campaign. We also put the links into the show notes if you want to join to his campaign for this episode. And now, without further ado, let's start our conversation with RF Gharakhani. Here we go. We are here with Aref Gharakhani. Thank you so much for joining us today. Aref. I know Aref from actually back in Iran. We went to the same school, Sharif, and we reconnected after many years. And thanks to Aref for reaching out and joining some of our Wepaws sessions. 

 03:33
Ali Eslamifar
And after having some conversation with him, I thought it would be actually great to have Aref as someone who has been an entrepreneur in Iran and now he moved to Canada in the last year, I think, to tell us about his story and his experience. And I think it would be interesting for the audience to start getting to know you. 

 03:52
Aref Gharakhani
Aref, thank you very much. Ali, it was great talking to you and reconnecting with you after such a long time. And I'm happy to be here. Your show, I think, is, was one of the things that I spotted, like randomly popped on in my LinkedIn feed and I was like, what is that? I know this guy, right? Mental health. Wow. Why, this is interesting. So to me it was like something that you're looking for already and you don't know what that is exactly. And then you suddenly realize, I'm not alone. Like, there are many other people who are, like, I think I, what you're doing, building the community, bringing people together, like starting a discussion around in the way that you can. Right. And it's just starting from what I understand. It's amazing. 

 04:45
Aref Gharakhani
Your personal story is also an inspiring one I want to send. So it's not necessarily we are going through the same story, but it's kind of a safe plot. So everybody is like hitting something. Realize that, okay, this is not necessarily working out for me. And I think this is what connect people. And it's great. I'm super happy to be here. 

 05:10
Ali Eslamifar
Oh, thank you. And I agree. And I think one of the things that made me think about inviting you to the show is your unique story. I think you, I know a lot of it because I can assume a lot of it. I also grew up in Iran. We also went to the same university. It's just like environmentally, we have experienced similar things. But at some point I left Iran. Like, I left Iran more than eleven years ago, but you stayed there and you started companies back to back. And finally, after many years, you left the country. I want to know how was that experience? 

 05:53
Ali Eslamifar
Like, if you want to start event from growing up in Iran and then your experience as a student and then starting your first company or going from one tech to another, if you can actually paint a picture, that would be amazing. 

 06:09
Aref Gharakhani
Yeah, sure. I think this story is kind of, like similar. So there's this kidde who is kind of smart, right? So goes to a special school because of that and then goes to high school. And the funny story that I always share is we used to do this test, like, which major should you pick when you go to college? I'm not sure if I shared this with you before, but there was this form that he would have filled in, like, what interests you? Stuff like that. And then I think the way it happened is that most of people are going to study math and physics because that was, like, a fashionable thing to do. And both of my parents were doctors. I knew that I wouldn't want to be a doctor. Something that later on changed. 

 07:02
Aref Gharakhani
I don't know why, which is kind of interesting. But anyway, what happened was I filled in that form and then based on the scores, different scores that you would have got, you would have been recommended, what kind of majors you should pick. And for me, the highest rank major somehow turned out to be forest ranger. So you need to become a forest ranger. So I went to RT. I was like, excuse me, sir. This cast is telling me I need to become a forest renter. And he said something like, Nas must have been a mistake. Like, you just need to go study engineering. Wow. Okay. So I go from what I still believe forest ranger would have been a better choice to study computer engineering at the most competitive spot that you could ever get to. 

 07:56
Aref Gharakhani
Not just people as well at the same time, but super competitive, super high pressure. And then one of my friends used to tell me my entire undergrad was like, I did not study computer engineering, although I have the degree, but I did not study. So I did all sorts of different things. And then after that, because I couldn't really. This is like, you're at the wrong place, right? I went on to study MBA because somehow that felt more natural because, like, not really wanted. There's so many right answers that you need to find. There is your answer. There is certain level of individuality which you have with management, which you do not necessarily have in engineering. Engineering, you have the right answer. But when you're doing our case study, there is no right answer. 

 08:58
Aref Gharakhani
It's like, there's your answer, which could be right, could be wrong. See your version of it. So that kind of started my journey of, okay, that didn't seem to work. And you have this unknown trauma of trying to be the smart kid who also needs to know science, be good at mathematic. All of this is like what you're trying to achieve, but you're not really built to do, probably, although you do occasionally when you have to do an exam. You work hard to hit that goal and reach that bar every time, but it comes at a cost, which is you never really start to wonder, who are you? And then going into industry, I think for me it was like, yes, I studied computer engineering. This is what I could do. 

 09:55
Aref Gharakhani
I went to work as a individual contributor when I started, and then I kind of immediately realized that I will not really fit to the way that corporations are running because I have to be the one who come up with my own ways and was not really trained to follow what everybody else knows. So it wasn't really long before I would no longer fit at any corporation. So it just happened to happen at the same time that startups started to grow in Iran, and I was lucky enough to have all the right titles, which is went to the right school, studied the right majority, and also possess what on the surface is something which is a competitive advantage if you're a person who wanted to become a forest ranger. 

 10:53
Aref Gharakhani
So you must be liking the excitement and discovering the new things and the excitement that comes with all that unknown territory. Right? So startups comes super naturally. Also have ADHD, which is something is like, you're neurologically wired to live in a chaos, right? It's like, okay, this is my jam. I mean, this is easy. So I could not only survive, but I think I was thriving in that environment because chaos is where people like me would probably survive. So nothing long that you realize, okay, I need to be a founder. I need to build stuff, build my own stuff. And that's how it started, I think. I founded an audiobook company along with two of my friends, and then I founded something which grew to become one of the largest delivery companies, I think, in the Middle east, probably in the entire world. 

 11:57
Aref Gharakhani
I would say, like top ten. I don't know the exact numbers, but they're definitely very big. And I also helped my ex wife building something, which I think is now the largest electronic health platform, which is in the country. So, yeah, that's kind of like a long version of where I'm coming from and what I did. And, yeah, it's been a year that I've came to Canada, and again, it's an unknown territory. It's, like, super exciting. 

 12:32
Ali Eslamifar
Yeah. 

 12:33
Aref Gharakhani
You're not. Yeah, I'm not loving the weather. It's, like, very unpredictable in every way. 

 12:44
Ali Eslamifar
Yeah. Especially where you're based at. I think were just in our pre recording talking that it has, like, the. One of the warmest summers and one of the coldest and driest winters. So it's actually funny. So there's a lot jam packed in your story, and thanks for sharing and walking us through your entire journey, like, from that forest kid, forest ranger kid, all the way to the dude who is now in Canada. And I think there are so many questions in my head. I'm going to start from the end of your story where what encouraged you, actually, to leave the country and why Canada, and we can maybe take it from there. 

 13:30
Aref Gharakhani
I think there's a paranormal component to that, which is, like, I'm looking forward to also help my family move. So choice of Canada was, except for the community that we have here, was also something that I could already do. I had the permanent residency because at some point in the past, I already applied and I got the permanent residency. It was like this ranking program. Then when there is an exam and there is rankings like we normally do. Good. So I got it. It was something that I was thinking as a contingency plan a couple of years ago, also lived for a while in Australia for the same reason. But the actual decision to really leave what I had built before, which was. 

 14:20
Aref Gharakhani
I mean, I'm still realizing how much I've left behind, how much of me was in there, because you're just assuming it's gonna move. You have this self inflated sense of who you are. You do not realize how much attached you are to everything which you're doing, which is your job, people you're working, how you're approaching problems, how you're solving problems, how much meaning are you really driving from that? So I think, for me, I had reached the point that I no longer could articulate, what is it am I doing? And I think one of my friends asked me some sort of question, like. And it was like, maybe one and a half years ago, something in the lines of, hey, man, six years ago, when you started this journey, did you want to be where you are now? And my answer was, hell, no. 

 15:21
Aref Gharakhani
This is not what I wanted not to say. I don't cherish the journey. I don't cherish the learnings. But I realized there is so much that I wanted for myself that I didn't really explore and I could not see that really happening back there. There was so much context that I was living in. So for me, like, I'm very subconscious level. I knew that I had to change in a very dramatic way. Would have been probably more reasonable that I would have taken small steps, but again, ADHD, postponing. Postponing. Then you make these dramatic decisions. Okay, I need to leave everything behind. So I actually planned my exit for a year, bringing on board very good people. I think I left the company in a very good shape and people might disagree, but that's what story that I'd like to stick to. 

 16:19
Aref Gharakhani
And since then, it has been one educational journey for me about who I am not, and things that I don't know that I'm still exploring. I'm at a point in my life I think kind of like, this is the start of a midlife stage where I wouldn't say a really crisis. Like, what is life? So you start to face new limits. Like, how is it that as the, I don't know, chief technology officer for a company, you have a lot of authority over what you're doing? Nobody questions whatever you're doing, really. You see Copenian very openly. That's how you. So you interface with the world from a position of. And that kind of shapes up your character in a certain way. And then the context changes and suddenly you're running on that old software which is interfacing with the world very differently. But. 

 17:26
Aref Gharakhani
And this just also started, like, randomly doing, like, going into job interviews, for example. Just wanted to get a sense of, okay, what is it that I need to do? And then you suddenly realize there is so much of you which you have left behind and it was already embedded in that context where you were living. And then you have to either earn that or learn that or at least be able to articulate that in a way that people would understand. Like, what did you really do? I remember, like, when I talk to people sometimes it's like, yeah, built this team. We just go up to this stage and then this happened, and the guy's like, really? Like, yes, I did all of this. Like, sounds like a lot. It's like, yes, it is a lot. It's like, why are you here? 

 18:16
Aref Gharakhani
It's like, I don't know. So there's still a certain level of exploration to it. I wish I could have answered exactly why I made that decision, but I used to have this friend who back in high school, so he was singing a song in language that he couldn't speak with the right rhythm. And then the other friend of mine would have told me, hey, man, do you even know what you're singing was, like, not really, but I know I'm doing it. Right. I don't know what verse is it that I'm singing, but I know I'm doing the right thing because I see myself outgrowing myself every other week. And this is not necessarily to say it's great results. Right. So there are many things that I didn't know about myself that I've. I'm just exploring, and it's not always pretty. 

 19:15
Ali Eslamifar
I'm actually so impressed with the fact that, and I've seen it in other mutual friends that we have and some other friends that you may not know them, but I really salute you all for looking at this journey as a journey of getting to know yourself. I think it's such a. It's such an easy thing to say that. Oh, okay. RF was CTO at one of the biggest food delivery or delivery companies probably in the world. And then he leaves the country and the Middle east and the region, and he goes to an unknown. Yeah, that's normal. Yeah. He had his time. Yeah. He's probably tired and burnt out. That's why he did it. Okay. It's so easy to look at these stories from outside this, but I think what. 

 20:08
Ali Eslamifar
What's interesting to look at and learn from and for the folks who are listening, what's interesting for me to look at is I made this decision when I pretty much didn't have much to leave. But with you folks, and especially you knowing your story, you left something behind. Coming and looking at this journey as a way to get to know yourself, I think it's so interesting. And it just teaches me a lesson where when life gives you anything, try to make the best out of it, even if you don't know what that thing is, whether it's lemon or whatever it is. But I think using that as a way to observe yourself. What am I? What am I not? I think it's very interesting. What are. 

 20:54
Ali Eslamifar
And I know I still have a lot of questions from your beginning of your story, but what are some of the down days look like in your experience? Because I can imagine as an immigrant, I also had my own story as an immigrant, you know, like coming to a new country at the time, I think everyone knows this story. I couldn't even speak English honestly, and I had my own personal struggles. And then one year later, I lost my father. And then all those things happened that made it so complex for me, especially the first year was like, jam packed with events that I can't even just go back easily. I have to really sit down, meditate on it if I want to think about it. 

 21:39
Ali Eslamifar
So I want to know what are some of those struggles with you or has been for you in the past year? 

 21:45
Aref Gharakhani
I mean, every aspect of life that my life that you look into, you would see lots of changes. It starts with the way I look, right? So probably in the past three years, and this is something for real, I have lost 25 kilos, regained 25, lost 25 again, regained. Now ten. I'm still back at ten. It's like four months ago I started to realize that I've injured my hamstrings. So I'm no longer being so active the way I used to. Like, I used to be, and I like. So it also, like, changes your identity in a certain way. Like when you. When you have developed a habit of regularly exercise every day or at least 66 days a week, to not being able to go to the gym. Like, that's something that you realize on so many levels how it is hitting you. 

 22:49
Aref Gharakhani
And that's the simplest thing that I can mention. But in terms of network, I think you start to realize that, okay, all the connections that you have, these are social connections that were just there and you didn't even try to those connections. But once you immigrate, that's like an effortful activity that you have to do. I have to reach out to you, right? It's like, Ali, let's connect. I mean, I need to connect with some people, right? And it's not like people don't want that. It's like everybody has their own life, and you kind of know a lot of people from the past, and that's for me, I'm really fortunate to have a lot of people who have already moved here. I had the similar experience of moving to Australia, and there I just know, like, a handful of people. 

 23:47
Aref Gharakhani
And I think it was a disaster here. I have a lot of good friends. My best friend from undergrad who lives here, my co founder from the first company that we built lives here. There's a big social network already that I can just easily reach out to. So I've been very lucky to have that in place already. But I still feel that social connection, and we are social animals, right? So we need that social component in our daily lives. No matter how brutal your childhood has been and how much loneliness you've already experienced, which to me was like, I moved away from my parents back when I was 18, and I'm very used to not really seeing them, meeting them. 

 24:35
Aref Gharakhani
So it's not like I need a lot of social circle around me all the time, but even for me, who is already living off that kind of lonely life, because a lot of reasons, moving here has been something that, again, applied a lot of extra pressure that you don't need. Again, I've been so lucky and so fortunate that I had this extensive people, a network of people who are living here, and I already knew friends from high school all over the place, and they all start to, once you reach out, you realize that, okay, I haven't really spoke to this guy for 15 years, right, but that's fine. You just need to, you just need to make the effort. 

 25:24
Aref Gharakhani
So I made a plan to really reach out to people who I knew, and it started to really turn around the way I started to look at things. At one point, I actually wanted to, and this was February and in Toronto, that's not pretty at all. So. And I think this was the time that I realized that I really need to ramp up my effort to connect. And I think it yielded beautifully. Like, I started to reach out to people. People start to tell you, okay, this is how you need to be presenting yourself. You need to make a decision. Do you want to do a job? Do you want to do a startup? But you need to make a decision. 

 26:07
Aref Gharakhani
And if you don't have a decision, you will just drag along that undecisiveness with you that's going to, you will pay the cost, right? So if you don't know, that's fine. Like, you can be the guy who doesn't know, but I'm also a person who needs to be doing something, so I can't just sit around. That's why I was just being so active and going to gym every day, doing a lot of running. I was actually preparing to do an ironman event at the time when I realized that, man, with this injury, and I'm not able to, and this was exactly the time that I couldn't no longer be physically active. It's February, and that, I think, was the lowest point, really. But from there, thank God, we decided to turn around. It was like a short downtime. So I started to reach out. 

 27:02
Aref Gharakhani
I decided to really explore professional opportunities here in the market. I just wanted to get a sense, okay, what it is like to, I don't know, at least do a job interview. And this is what I started to do, like going into job interviews, what would happen, like, and I walk into job interviews and I could interview people that could be, who were actually interviewing me, right. Very easily. I'm like, okay, man, you need to grow. That's evolve or die, right? So evolve, learning from the experience. And you might as well still go do whatever you want to do. You might want to do another startup, you might want to join a startup, you might want to join a corporation, but you have to do the exercise, right? 

 27:46
Aref Gharakhani
So I started to do the exercise, talking to startups, working with startups, doing job interviews, and I started to really change. And with simple habits, like do things every day, I think it started to work out beautifully. So I'm super excited to see what would happen as I go forward. I'm not even sure I'm helping your podcast with my answers. 

 28:15
Ali Eslamifar
No, it is very interesting. I think the way I'm seeing it is you spend a thing near 20 years building your kingdom in Iran and you've been a founder and like, the track record that we talked about the school, and then continuously, just like hitting the right a's in that path. And naturally it should build an ego like that. Naturally it builds a definition of you. And this is what I mean by it, a definition of you that's been protecting you for years. I don't think you've been even ever job interviewed in Iran like that. That's, that's probably my assumption. And yeah, there we go. 

 29:01
Aref Gharakhani
Two times. I did two times. 

 29:04
Ali Eslamifar
And probably those were very formalized just to make sure they're doing it, not for the really for the fact to understand who you are. So not even having any interview experience in your late thirties and then suddenly coming to a country and fighting that ego, I think what I'm observing, and please correct me if I'm wrong or add more colors if needed, like that. February, although the season, we know how bad it is in Toronto and how cold it gets, but with that seasonality, you've been also, like experiencing some downtime that really made you realize that you need to fight with that ego. You need to start like the fact that you're down is because you're trying to push away some of those things. That's what I was hearing. 

 29:49
Ali Eslamifar
I, and then when you started giving it a chance, when you started, like, practicing things from small steps, that's when you started like, really connecting to your true self rather than your ego. Your ego is still there. If you want to use it, you can use it. But the fact that now you're able to just go to job interviews and say that, hey, like, what? What? Why does it matter if I go to a job interview? What? That's. There's nothing wrong about it. It's actually connecting me. Like, you started finding your own values from what I'm seeing, you found your values of, like, connection. Like, you're. You're an active person. You love to do things. I even remember you, like, back in our school. 

 30:28
Ali Eslamifar
Like, I knew how you were one of the active students in our school, so we knew, like, we could see how active you are. And now it just makes a lot of sense. I think the dots are connected for you because you found your value, in my opinion, to be connected. And, like, you sort of, like, started by taking steps to get to a job and do what you're good at and then find that network and be connected to this world in a real manner. So that's what I've heard. Did I hear it properly? And then is there anything to add to it? 

 31:04
Aref Gharakhani
I think it started, like, way before this point, but, yeah, I mean, that description is a. I think I like that because, like, somebody talking about me and describing it in a heroic way, like, I love that. Right. Why not? But I mean, somebody actually talks about you, right. And tells you something that you should have an ego, but you don't have an ego and you're being. Doing the thing. That's naturally what I would like. Right. Don't know about you, but the truth of the matter is that I've been practicing that for a long time without really knowing it. So it's also, to some level, part of my personality, which is not necessarily a good thing. So there has been moments in my life that I should have expressed in Rigo, like, I should have taken credit for what I've done. 

 31:54
Aref Gharakhani
I should have maybe done things differently where, because I naturally don't overuse what you refer to, I think, as ego. And it's like, I don't necessarily go to that place, but this is not necessarily a good thing. I mean, help me in this situation. Would have. Would have been maybe a lot more difficult without that. But again, accurate picture. But the journey started, I think, way before, like, who are you? I started to learn there are parts of me who are not, which are not really working properly, and they're just with me. And I started to notice this when my team started to really grow. I could see how I'm hurting people. And as someone who is expanding a company, who's trying to drive a vision, a roadblock towards a certain vision in a certain way, within a certain culture, that's not always easy. 

 33:06
Aref Gharakhani
I've received calls, messages from people telling me, you're the most horrible person I've ever seen. Right. And this, like, wakes you up, like, why? There is certain level of, I think, healthy arrogance that you should have, right? It's like, that's who I am, right? I drive a company toward a mission. Otherwise you were just doing not much. You wouldn't succeed. I mean, markets don't evolve or die, right? That's the market mantra. And to people who are not fit, you can simply say, okay, this is how we are as a company, and you can lead. But there's also a certain level of self reflection and emotions that comes with that experience of man. There is something that you need to change, right? And it starts with you seeing signs. 

 34:06
Aref Gharakhani
And I think the journey for me unfolded in a way that I started to really ask myself these questions as a guy, limited in a lot of ways. Right. And that's not the picture that you necessarily want to create for yourself when you're basically a successful company because you have other people are often seeing you as you're successful, you're building things. And people start to, I don't give you some sort of congratulatory remarks, but I think internally you start to realize all things that you didn't achieve because how limited you were. Like your insights, your manners, your vision, youre capacity as a leader, right? So I think I started this battle with me, which is you need to win, where you lack certain things and you need to walk into that challenge. 

 35:06
Aref Gharakhani
So I don't know why I started to, I told you about the story. Like, I started to learn swimming, which I could never do, right? Like, now I've lost the 25 kilos I can run. I've always been very confident about my ability, but I never was a good swimmer. I could actually not swim because I just wanted to learn swimming because I was much younger, much older than everybody else, and the teacher was just making fun of me. I just traumatized me to the level that I just couldn't go anymore. And then I don't know where it came from. Like, I was 35, 36, and I wanted to learn how to swim. So I started to go to sewing. It was like, this is my limitation. I have to solve that, right? 

 35:59
Aref Gharakhani
And then with everything else, like, with people, how much empowerment do you build in your company? That's also, like, as a leader who is kind of like, has to be a control freak to some extent when you're doing a startup because you have to manage things. At some point, you have to let go. Right? That's not always easy. That's what you have to practice. Every time that you let go, things will go wrong. So you have to practice. Okay. We didn't get the results that we wanted. It went horribly wrong sometimes, but you have to live with it because that's how companies grow. So you have to grow for your company to grow. So that's like a thing that you have to practice on conscious level with your life, with your time, with every meeting that you go to. 

 36:48
Aref Gharakhani
It's not always easy to know the right answer, but let everybody else arrive at a different decision and say, okay, team, if that's your call, let's do that. Right. That's personal growth, I think. And fast forward to where I am now. I have all of that practice with me already. When I talk to someone now, it's like, okay, this is the feedback. This is the impression that I made. That's my responsibility to change. I know this already. Right? I have delivers. I've seen this before, my problem to solve. And then because you have all that experience of solving problems and changing yourself to change the outcome, then that comes kind of easy. Still very difficult to actually go through. But, yeah, I think I've been, again, very lucky to have the network already been practicing a lot of that. 

 37:54
Aref Gharakhani
I think being comfortable with failing at so many levels that helped me in this journey. 

 38:01
Ali Eslamifar
It's very. And I really appreciate it. Thank you for adding the added color here, because now it paints even a much more interesting picture, because it tells me that you've been building muscles over the past few years due to your professional experiences and the kind of feedback you've received. And then the question that it brought to you that, like, then why? Why am I doing this? Why does it sound like this to them that I'm being arrogant or whatever? And now you're using those muscles in your new journey in the past year. It's very interesting. And I want to know, what are some of the things that you've done during that time? 

 38:41
Ali Eslamifar
Like, first of all, what were some of the problems that you have noticed when you got such feedback from folks, and then when you started realizing that something has to change about you or you need to grow in some areas, what were some of the problems or questions or challenges that was brought to you personally? And then how did you kind of, like, go through that path to build that muscle? 

 39:07
Aref Gharakhani
Ooh, okay, that's a good one. I think I remember episodes of me, maybe shouting at someone at the office, like, that's not me. But it happened. I remember, like, it was a shouting match. Like, thank God nobody else was there. So that experience taught me it's like, man, you're limited in a certain way. So I think at that point of time, I started to notice that something is really wrong. So I started to change a few things or two. I've been so lucky to have people in my life who just showed me the next steps. And in this case, I think I had this friend who told me something like, you need therapy. And for me, it was like being the arrogant person I was. I've been to therapy because I had been to therapy. 

 40:00
Aref Gharakhani
At that point, I had this, again, wrong impression that I know what's really going on. And then this friend of mine really helped me get connected with therapist. And I think therapist also pointed out all the right points. And then guess what? I stopped doing therapy. That's like the natural thing to do. And then three months passes, and then I'm starting to hand off some of my responsibilities because I know something is wrong. A year past the point that my friend is telling me, you need therapy, it takes me six months to really start, three months of going and three months of rejecting that entire thing. Although on deep level, you know they're right. And this is, I think, the difficult part, I think rightfully so. The therapist pointed out something like, you are behaving. 

 40:59
Aref Gharakhani
You're showing signs of, I think this is politically incorrect for a person to say, especially these days, but the label was, you're showing a lot of narcissistic defenses. I don't know why, but this is what I see. And she was just drawing that picture for me, and it was so difficult to grasp that. And now with, like, there's this, I think, stigma with. With narcissism, which I think is a certain disorder that some people have, right? Or maybe I also have. I'm not sure, because that's just a percentage of population, right? That's a normal human response, right? That could be very maladaptive in a way that's not really changeable, but there could also be a certain level of situational component to it. Like, for example, people who are working in the police department. I mean, based on assessment. 

 42:07
Aref Gharakhani
This is in the DSM version, I think, the latest one. There's some cohorts of population who show higher level of narcissistic behavior, right. Police officers, for example. And they're not bad people, right? Medical students, they're not bad people. One of the selfless things that they can do is to try to save other people. But at the same time, you develop this kind of, because the problem is, I think you start to become so right so often and that you forget how limited you are. That's the point. Like, if you're a doctor, like, I respect all of them. Both of my parents are doctors. Selflessly thing to do. But at some point you start to realize that everybody has a problem and comes to you. You provide the solution, right? And you're sometimes right, often right. Then you get the results, everybody thanking you. 

 43:08
Aref Gharakhani
You develop this natural response which is like, I'm right. Same thing happens when you're successful. It's like, I am right, I'm fucking right. And then somebody tells you, this is maladaptive. You need to be open still, like, where you're not right. It doesn't matter how right you are. Like, doesn't really matter. You need to just learn. That's, that's the thing. If you're good, you can do better, right? If you're a, can still do better, it doesn't really matter. So I think this was a point, a turning point for me to realize that I have ADHD. I started to take my medications. Finally, after postponing it for a long time, I started to do the right things for my, I would say neurological and also psychological steps that I should have taken. The biochemistry and biology I started to get right. 

 44:07
Aref Gharakhani
And also the psychologist, like, man, I'm not broken. I just need to upgrade myself. And then I restarted therapy. And I think past one year has been amazing. It's like every week I'm going to my therapist. Like, you know what we discussed last week actually made a change because you're now ready. You're like this. I don't know how to describe it, but you're so ready to grasp all that insight into your life and make changes that starts to really show. So I think therapy has been what took me like 36 years to be receptive. I would say ten years of actually first time that I started to do therapy, when I really started to see the real signs of improvement. It's already eleven years after the first time that I did it. I'm happy that I got introduced to it much earlier. 

 45:05
Aref Gharakhani
And also you start to realize what kind of therapy is helpful for you. Like a conscious decision that you have to make because you have this impression of, okay, I'm broken, I'm going to somebody and then they're going to fix me. But that's not the case. Like, if therapist is not working, you have to change them. If the approach is not working, you have to change it. You have to have the intention of improving your emotional life, your psychological health and your mental health. Otherwise, it's not a doctor that then treats you. So you're now fixed, right. It takes some level of intent every time. Okay, what is it that you're doing? And my therapist was telling me that I'm always present in our conversations, and she told me this last week, like, you do think you have ADHD, but you're also so present. 

 46:01
Aref Gharakhani
I record all of our conversations and I just go back to them sometimes I think, who is this guy who's talking? Which is me. I started to really learn from myself. So that has been an immense help in the past two years. 

 46:18
Ali Eslamifar
I was just, like, visualizing everything. And the fact that I didn't interrupt any part of it was in parts, I was empathizing with it myself. It was at parts very similar to experiences that I had. And I was sort of trying to see both pictures to ask questions and also calling out, how mature of you. I think this is why I love recording these calls, to see people the way they really are and their stories and hear their stories the way they really experienced it. Like the fact that you speak about the thing that your therapist mentioned to you, that, hey, you're showing some narcissism. 

 47:04
Ali Eslamifar
And also, at the same time, I think the fact that there are characteristics, and you painted the picture of a forest ranger for us in the beginning, that I think forest ranger should also be in that category of jobs, that you may see higher narcissism, maybe, but I think it just paints a great picture of the real human being and the real people that we can be. So I really thank you for that. And I think as far as therapy goes, as I was, again, looking at both pictures in my head, I think a lot of that is similar for me growing up in Iran, and I didn't grow up in a doctor's family, so I probably had even more stigmas around going to a therapy or what's wrong with you that you want to go to a therapy? 

 47:57
Ali Eslamifar
So imagine all those stigma and the walls around it. And then for me, it took a very long time to be convinced that this is the path for me to find some answers and start at least observing myself. So the fact that's kind of like the delta between your story that I want to call out, it's not even for folks who are living in Iran, it's not even that easy, at least for our generation, the millennials in Iran, it wasn't that accepted to go to therapy. Now, I think the conversation is different, thanks to all the folks who are really on the ground trying to change this thing and provide therapy at much lower rate and more accessible and also, like, the amount of content that exists on social media. But I think in our generation, it wasn't kind of, like, encouraged at all. 

 48:50
Ali Eslamifar
So the fact that you picked on that eventually, like, those struggles, the struggles to pick up therapy, leave it, take it. Thinking that you know the answer, of course, and finally using it the way that you're doing, I think the cadence of, like, once a week is also very interesting. What are some of the other things? And I think that's kind of like the segue that we can maybe shift the gears a little bit. But I'm curious. You mentioned you're doing therapy, and then you're also doing swimming recently. That's something that you picked up. What are some of the other thing that you do to keep your mental health at a level that, yeah, you like to see? 

 49:35
Aref Gharakhani
I started to realize that sticking to routines really is helpful. So I'm starting to really. And this is something that I was doing very irregularly, not in an organized way, but writing things down, like in a journal way, is super helpful. And it's always a good investment to relearn after you do it for a while. So I started to do. I've been doing this for a long time in an unstructured way, like a piece of paper on a notebook, on a notion. And then every time you think you got it right, but you got to get it wrong. So now kind of arrived at the system, which is kind of working, which is being intentional about a change that I want to do. And I. And now, I think, mature enough to really realize that one change is more than enough. 

 50:33
Aref Gharakhani
If you can do just one change every quarter, you're already amongst the top 1% of the population. So be very picky about what you write, what you want to choose, and then be limited in what you want to do and. And the change that you wanna make. So, journaling made a lot of help, I think, getting the biology right, as I said, like staying active right sleep right type of food that you get. I mean, this is like urine, this machine, which is 99% biological, 1% psychological, I would say so often, like, getting a good night's sleep is much more important than. I don't know, like, I don't know, a therapy session, probably. What else? I think getting the biology right has so many aspects, like staying active, right, food, stuff like that. 

 51:40
Aref Gharakhani
And I think one of the other things that I started to pick from, I don't know if I could call him a role model, is I started to really like the way there's this guy, might have known him, know him already. It's called Ray Dalio. So he has this book called principles. To me, he is sounding like a guy. He's already like 75, a billionaire already. Not something that, like, much similar to where I am in my life. But if you actually listen to what he is really sharing, you see, okay, that's my story in a way. Right? So, coming up with principles about your life that you really try to stick to and upgrade as much as you can, and being very intentional and self aware about what are those principles? 

 52:35
Aref Gharakhani
And what are those, what are the reasonings that you arrive at those principles? And again, in your journaling practice, that's how you would discover them, because these are the things that really help you. Like, I mean, my best background is telling me something every day, so I don't have to really make an effort to remind myself of that. This is the principle. Live off by this principle. And then there's constant reminders for yourself to. To live by principles that you already know. Because sometimes we forget. You think I have the lesson. Just because you got the lesson doesn't mean you're living off living by that principle to your heart already every day. So just need to remind yourself that. So it's a boring way of saying. 

 53:33
Ali Eslamifar
Practice, practice, practice, practice. I totally agree. And just to get an idea of those principles, what are some of that look like for you? What are some of the principles that you figured out for yourself? If you can share it with us, it will help me to get an idea of how to define a principle for my life. 

 53:58
Aref Gharakhani
For me, I think number one is be curious. And be curious is in probably a two word summary of who I am and who I need to be. I will ask you why it could be disagreeable. It comes with a lot of package, being curious, but it pays off every time. Makes me happy. Like, puts me in a mood that, okay, that's how it works. And then that's. So this is something that in every difficult situation, when I enter this situation, I start to realize I'm having this conversation in my head. Like I'm ruminating I'm paying some emotional tax with a situation. And I remind myself, what could you be curious about? Right? And then if you can ask yourself that question, like, what do I not know about the situation? 

 54:57
Aref Gharakhani
And then that just gears up your, I think, prefrontal cortex in a way. It's like, okay, what is it that I'm not understanding, right. And then it starts to. Makes you reflective. Right? The other thing, like, for another principle is start maybe principles, like a question, which is, which part of it is really reality? What is reality in this situation? What is made up? Because often facts are very few, but we make a lot of subjective interpretation, which sounds like facts. Facts should be, in every situation, there are one or two facts, and everything else is your perception of that situation. You will be able to identify what is reality, which is something that sometimes you can change, sometimes you're not able to change. But the reality is often really hard facts, you know, way that you can. I'm 38. That's it. 

 56:00
Aref Gharakhani
Like, you could be, that's good. You could be, say, that's bad. It's like, that's 38. You're no longer 28. You're not 48. You're 38. That's. That's just a fact, right? You have this many number of years left in your life. That's kind of a fact, right? But everything else is. Is it enough to do what everything else is super subjective, right? So again, in every difficult situation, every problem that you face, remind yourself that what is really the reality? So these are the kind of things that I started to come up with. Not sure if it is really helpful. 

 56:42
Ali Eslamifar
No, it is. And I thank you for that. And I think it's very interesting to see how passionate you are even talking about it. It just proves that for me, it really helps to see what would that principle do to me. You know, like, the principle should be so much of me that it makes me so passionate. It just makes me talk about it and, like, really enjoy. And you made a really good signal that in the first one that be curious. You said that because it makes me happy. And I think that's very important. At the end of the day, if we have our principles, if there are something that they're truly us, there's no way for us to not be happy, even if at times we have to be struggling in a conversation. 

 57:31
Ali Eslamifar
But we know at the end that principle is going to pay off. 

 57:34
Aref Gharakhani
This is like something which you're already running. Like your software, like in your brain is already being curious, right? And probably when you're suffering is because you stopped being curious for some reason, because you want to make your boss happy, because you want to meet a deadline because there's something which has stopped you from your natural state of being, which is being curious. Like I need to know, I need to understand. And then that's just a reminder for yourself to be. This is like a cliche to say, be who you are, but know who you are and be you. I was like, I think the most cliched, but that's the answer to these questions are really important, and finding the answer is not really rudimentary. Right. If you ask me in two years, I might give you another answer. Right. Because that's how. 

 58:25
Aref Gharakhani
How it would probably evolve, like, from where you're in a lifetime. Like, I don't know if you're going through a tragedy in your life, probably be curious is not the best mantra to live because that would be, why me? Then you have to adopt different ways, especially if you're, I don't know. When I'm, I don't know, 75, it's probably not be curious, but that's what my background says and currently it's working. 

 58:59
Ali Eslamifar
That's amazing. 

 59:01
Aref Gharakhani
Or maybe not working and I just don't know. It. 

 59:05
Ali Eslamifar
I think it's interesting. And the time aspect that you mentioned is also very interesting. Like, this thing is going to change because I'm going to change the, I think it comes with me again. It's part of me. It's something that helps me run today, but maybe not tomorrow. So I'm changing. That is going to change. So I love that aspect, that kind of, like, dynamic aspect of it that you called out rightfully as kind of like, the last question that we always love to ask our guests is if there's something, if there's an activity that you would like to be doing with some of our listeners for 30 days, what would that activity be? And to help them with their mental health. 

 59:50
Aref Gharakhani
Like a kind of a recommendation or. 

 59:52
Ali Eslamifar
Yeah, and something that you would also do with them for 30 days. Let's say some of our guests, for example, in the past, they said, I would recommend writing mantras once a day, or I would recommend, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, I think running a milo day, things like that. 

 01:00:10
Aref Gharakhani
I mean, I would say do one thing that you know what it is for 30 days. And if it didn't work, do something else. I mean, if you could just be focused about one thing, like, this is one thing I want to do, could be your weight loss system, could be nutrition, could be activity, could be reading a book. Could be, I don't know, like telling people how beautiful they are or, I don't know, whatever. Right. Just pick one thing. Do it, really do it. And then if it didn't work out because there is a reason that you want to do that, just change it. And I honestly don't think a lot of people are just living by this very simple system, which is. That's one of the one thing. And then once this is done, I would go to the next thing. 

 01:01:04
Aref Gharakhani
And with that execution of what that one thing, I will be intentional. Like, if it's working, I will just double down. If it is not, I will change that. Right. Because we often have so many problems. You're often overwhelmed with the number of problems, like the actual system. You want to do a startup, spend two minutes, like, per day just writing about your idea. Like one line of code per day. That's how it starts. Like, do it for 30 days. 

 01:01:34
Ali Eslamifar
I love the aspect that it brings into one. It's something that I like, and I have this conviction internally that, oh, I like to start running, for example, or I like to restart coding because I haven't coded for who knows how many years. Right. And now just do it for 30 days. Don't drop it during this. 30 days. Don't drop it. Do it for 30 days. Commit to it for a timeframe. Again, there's a time aspect here. Commit to it for a timeframe. If in the end of 30 days, it wasn't what you felt, it is, drop it. Don't be afraid of saying that I coded for 30 days and I didn't like it. There's nothing wrong about it. If anything, it helped you learn something new. And you know that the next 30 days, you're not going to waste your time learning coding. 

 01:02:26
Aref Gharakhani
Exactly. 

 01:02:26
Ali Eslamifar
And I love that. It's like I kind of. I sometimes force myself, like, doing these things, even like, for my social media management and stuff, that instead of, like, having a one off idea, do something for like four weeks, or the cadence that I kind of, like, measure my success in the performance of those posts and everything. Do that for four weeks. Do 24, 25 videos and see how that works. If it worked, there are parts of it, again, like, this is so agile and so product management of both of us talking. If it worked, see which part of it worked, then you do that better and drop this part of it. So I really appreciate it. This was a great suggestion. We're going to write that campaign and put it in the show notes. Folks who like it, they can join you. 

 01:03:18
Ali Eslamifar
Thank you so much again for being on the show. If there's any final thoughts, anything that you want to share that you couldn't share earlier, I really enjoyed this conversation and yeah, I would love to hear if there's anything from you in the end. 

 01:03:31
Aref Gharakhani
Thank you very much for this is actually the second podcast that I've done my entire life. The other one was just 3 hours ago, so I'm not really good at this. I'm not also a super structured person when it comes to. So I'm passionate, probably from the way I look. I just keep moving and yeah, thank you very much. I really enjoy what you're doing, although I'm not really listening to any podcast right at the moment because that's just probably at this point of my life, not really working. Like a year ago was working, now it's not really working. 

 01:04:08
Aref Gharakhani
But I think the act of putting yourself out there is so courageous and self expanding that I think you're doing an amazing thing, first of all for yourself and then for everybody who is coming on your show, including me, like I'm already another person. Then I think with everybody who also listens, and I think this is how every great thing has started, which is one step at a time, one listener at a time, one episode at a time. It's great. 

 01:04:47
Ali Eslamifar
Like I choose. 

 01:04:51
Aref Gharakhani
One gift at a time. Yeah. Yeah. So keep doing what you're doing and I wish you all the best. 

 01:04:59
Ali Eslamifar
Thank you, man. I really appreciate it. I'm also, like so happy that we have reconnected and now also recorded a an episode together and I can't wait to continue chatting with you in future. And I hope everyone also, like enjoyed this conversation. This was really fun for me and thank you so much for being so open about your story and I see you again sometime soon. 

 01:05:24
Aref Gharakhani
Absolutely. 

 01:05:25
Ali Eslamifar
Thank you. Cheers. 

 01:05:27
Aref Gharakhani
Cheers. 

 01:05:33
Ali Eslamifar
That was our conversation with Aref Gharakhani. I really appreciate him opening up about his story on this show. I also love to remind you that the best way to support this show is by subscribing to our channels, including our YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts. You can also review us up to a five star review or share us with friends that may benefit from such content. If you're also interested in following RF's accountability campaign, please use the link in the show notes and we'll contact you when the campaign starts. Thanks again and I hope to see you in the next episode of the Ally Show.